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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 24 September 2015

24 Sep 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Indeed—and I think that there was a recent case of that type. However, an example does not provide a definition. In that case, the public interest is easier to understand, but there are other cases in which what the public interest is is less easy to understand. As Patricia Ferguson said, preventing fatalities is surely in the public interest—that is about learning the lessons of fatal accidents.

As has been mentioned, the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill is not the only bill that has been introduced to address Lord Cullen’s recommendations. Patricia Ferguson told us that she deliberately intended some of the proposals in her bill to be more radical than some of Lord Cullen’s recommendations. The Justice Committee recommended that the general principles of both bills be supported. Because of the time constraints that exist as we come to the end of a parliamentary session and the priority that is quite rightly given to Government bills—that has always been the case—Labour members of the committee were prepared to agree that the Government’s bill was the best vehicle to progress modernisation of the legislation on the fatal accident inquiry process in the few months of the session that we have left.

As we have heard, Patricia Ferguson has accepted that recommendation and withdrawn her bill with immediate effect. I would like to pay tribute to her for the work that she did on her bill. It must have been extremely difficult for her to decide to withdraw the bill after all the hard work that she and her staff and Patrick McGuire of Thompsons Solicitors had put into drafting and explaining it, especially given her experience with her constituents. She must have had a strong emotional desire to try to sort things out after going through that experience. I pay tribute to her for that. I am not quite sure what her decision means for Tuesday’s debate—I would have thought that it can no longer proceed, now that there is no bill to debate. I suppose that that will be a problem for the business managers on the Parliamentary Bureau to resolve.

I assure Patricia Ferguson that members of the committee will make their best efforts to fulfil her expectation that aspects of her bill will be progressed in the Government’s bill. I think that that commitment would probably be made across the chamber, although there is not uniform agreement on the areas in which amendments should be made to the Government’s bill. I look forward to the Government working with Patricia Ferguson to make the necessary amendments.

Many members, including Johann Lamont, Christian Allard and Mike MacKenzie, have spoken about the importance of the families of the deceased. We all agree that they must be central to the FAI process. Although the purpose of an FAI is to determine what lessons can be learned in the public interest, families must be kept informed about decisions, and decisions have to be made timeously. We must see an end to people waiting years just to be told that a fatal accident inquiry is not to be held. As Johann Lamont said, families have a desire for justice and their day in court; they seek explanations, not the sort of recompense that a civil action may result in. Often that is not what people want. Willie Coffey spoke about the journey of the family of his constituent Alison Hume and the lack of closure that the process had for them.

As we know, the bill does not take forward a number of Lord Cullen’s recommendations, such as the extension to include children who died in residential care other than secure accommodation and the deaths of people in compulsory detention by a public authority. A number of members asked questions about that.

Johann Lamont spoke about people who died in healthcare settings. Medical procedures may not have been followed, for example. I think that many of us have had cases—I certainly have—in which constituents have been unhappy about the fact that the health service investigates itself and there does not seem to be any independent arbiter. The deaths may be those of elderly people in healthcare settings, and families may have a suspicion that the elderly person was not considered important enough to receive some of the treatment that they might have received if they were younger.

Alison McInnes and Margaret McDougall made an important point about people who are detained under mental health legislation. Perhaps we should turn the process on its head and have mandatory inquiries in those circumstances but give the Lord Advocate discretion not to hold an inquiry when the cause of death is known—if it was by natural causes, for example—or there is no cause for concern. That was the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland’s suggestion.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The first item of business this afternoon is a debate on motion S4M-14328, in the name of Paul Wheelhouse, on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden D...
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse) SNP
I am delighted to open the stage 1 debate on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Justice Committee for its ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I note at the start of the debate that we have a little bit of time in hand this afternoon. 14:46
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak as convener on behalf of the Justice Committee, which is the lead committee considering the bill. As members are aware—I r...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Lab
Did the committee look at the definition of what is in the public interest? In my experience, the definition is drawn so narrowly that issues that people fee...
Christine Grahame SNP
No—I think that it would be very dangerous for us to interfere with the independence of the Lord Advocate, who takes the decision on what is and what is not ...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lab
Like the committee convener, I would welcome that move. However, does she agree that the final report of perhaps a yearly return should be laid before the Pa...
Christine Grahame SNP
I return to what I said as a caveat at the beginning of my speech, which was that I speak with my convener’s hat on. Members have that on the record but I ca...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
On behalf of Labour members, I thank the clerks, the Scottish Parliament information centre and the witnesses who contributed to our stage 1 consideration. ...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome the stage 1 debate on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. I thank the many witnesses for their valuable contr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We are fortunate to have a little time in hand, so I can allow speeches of a generous six minutes. 15:12
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I apologise to the chamber for the fact that I will not be able to stay for the full debate because I have another pressing engagement. I refer members to my...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lab
As we have heard, it is now seven years since the Scottish Government commissioned Lord Cullen to review the system of fatal accident inquiries, and it is so...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Fatal accidents and sudden deaths are unforeseen tragedies. It is hard to comprehend how families and friends can deal with the aftermath of such tragedies. ...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Lab
We all recognise the importance of the debate. I congratulate Patricia Ferguson in particular on all that she has done to drive the agenda. I do not think th...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to participate in the stage 1 debate on modernising the fatal accident inquiry legislation. My experience of the system is in the context of th...
Patricia Ferguson Lab
I am grateful to the member for his comments and I sympathise entirely with him about the tragic constituency case that he is talking about. Will he therefor...
Willie Coffey SNP
I am keen to hear what the minister will have to say on summing up. I understand the explanations that have been given by the minister and others about the d...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Fatal accident inquiries provide an important opportunity to find out what went wrong and, ultimately, to learn in order that we can prevent something simila...
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
The bill is yet another example of the Scottish Government’s—and Parliament’s—bid to implement progressive policies for the benefit of the people of Scotland...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
A discussion of fatal accident inquiries will inevitably be emotive. Families who have experienced the loss of a loved one often seek nothing more than an ex...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
On 29 January 2009, Colin Love went for a swim beside a beautiful beach on Margarita Island in Venezuela. I have mentioned Colin previously in the chamber. H...
Margaret McDougall (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I have just joined the Justice Committee, so I was not part of the bill’s stage 1 scrutiny. I have listened with interest to the debate, and I have found it ...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
As a layperson—that is, a non-lawyer who is not a member of the Justice Committee—I do not propose to talk much about the technicalities of the bill. Instead...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
The bill is technical but, as Mike MacKenzie eloquently highlighted, no one in the debate has lost sight of its human element. We would do so at our cost—it ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Before we move to the closing speeches, I invite all members who have taken part in the debate to join us for them. 16:32
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, welcome the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. It is clear that...
Elaine Murray Lab
Fatal accident inquiries are inquiries into the circumstances of a death that are undertaken in the public interest to determine the time, place and cause of...
Christine Grahame SNP
I will give a hypothetical example. Let us say that a young mother who is suffering from severe postnatal depression and who has not been given the appropria...
Elaine Murray Lab
Indeed—and I think that there was a recent case of that type. However, an example does not provide a definition. In that case, the public interest is easier ...