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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 24 September 2015

24 Sep 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I welcome the stage 1 debate on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. I thank the many witnesses for their valuable contributions and the Justice Committee clerks for their work in delivering a comprehensive report.

It was the evidence that was provided by one witness, Flt Lt James Jones, that highlighted that no mandatory FAIs are carried out in Scotland following the deaths of service personnel abroad. I am therefore pleased that agreement in principle has been reached with the UK Government to ensure that a mandatory FAI can be held in those circumstances, in the same way as investigations into such deaths are carried out by a coroner in England and Wales.

I acknowledge and pay tribute to the extensive work that Patricia Ferguson has done on her bill, which covers the same policy area and which we will discuss more fully next week.

In 2008, in recognition of the fact that FAIs required significant reform and modernisation, Lord Cullen carried out a review. The treatment of bereaved families and the lengthy delays to the commencement of inquiries, aggravated by patchy communication from the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, formed the basis that prompted many of the review recommendations and the subsequent provisions in the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. The affected families have already endured the distress and pain of losing a loved one and, although FAIs are undertaken in the public interest, they undoubtedly significantly help to offer resolution and much-needed closure for relatives.

However, some important recommendations that Lord Cullen made in his review are not in the bill, including the suggestion of holding an early hearing when an FAI is mandatory. When he gave evidence to the committee, Lord Cullen said that he proposed such a procedure

“simply to let the families and other persons who are directly involved know what is going on so they can be satisfied that all proper steps are being taken to progress matters.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 5 May 2015; c 5.]

Stakeholders had mixed responses to that suggestion, with campaigners broadly in favour of the idea. Lord Gill, on the other hand, expressed doubts that formal meetings were necessary when the same outcomes could be achieved if the Crown established

“good protocols of conduct whereby the relatives would be kept in touch.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 19 May 2015; c 37.]

Significantly, Lord Cullen stated:

“If the COPFS has made improvements such that fears about the family not being kept fully in the picture are groundless, that makes an early hearing of the type that I described ... unnecessary.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 5 May 2015; c 5.]

In response to some of that evidence and the legitimate concern that there is a pressing need to reduce the unacceptable delays that adversely affect bereaved families, the Solicitor General committed to producing a milestone charter. It outlines what families can expect from the COPFS in relation to the timings of investigations and decision making. The priority must be to keep relatives informed while concentrating the minds of the COPFS on the work that must be done to avoid delays.

The committee has yet to receive a draft of the charter—perhaps the minister could give us some idea of the timescale for when it will be available—but, if it measures up to expectations, it will most certainly be a positive step forward.

I turn next to the Cullen review recommendation that a mandatory FAI should be held when someone was, at the time of their death, subject to compulsory detention by a public authority, which would include detention under mental health legislation. During evidence sessions, concerns were expressed about how the deaths of those who were detained under mental health legislation are investigated in practice. However, in considering its stage 1 report, the committee concluded that there is no need for mandatory FAIs in such circumstances, because some deaths of those who were detained under mental health legislation are straightforward—for example, they clearly result from natural causes.

Given that those who are detained under mental health legislation are some of the most vulnerable in our society, I revisited Lord Cullen’s review and noted that he states that

“even investigations into deaths by natural causes may reveal unsafe conditions ... it is in the public interest that an FAI should be held into the deaths of those detained by the state, especially those who are most vulnerable.”

Therefore, even in the case of so-called straightforward deaths, such as deaths from natural causes—and despite the comments from the Mental Welfare Commission and others, to which the minster referred—I believe that there are still many issues to consider before rejecting the need for a mandatory FAI to be carried out. There is merit in revisiting the issue at stage 2.

I would like to highlight two further areas. The first is the withdrawal of the reasonableness test—to which Elaine Murray referred—for legal representation for the deceased’s relatives. Although I appreciate that it is not an access to justice question in the conventional sense, Lord Cullen emphasised that the crucial question is

“whether there is a public interest ... in families having that degree of support.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 5 May 2015; c 8.]

I urge the Scottish Government to consider the question carefully at stage 2. Secondly, Lord Cullen recommended the creation of a central team to co-ordinate and monitor FAIs. That idea seems sensible and there is a precedent for it in the form of the domestic abuse task force.

If the improvements to the bill are to be realised, it will be vital for the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, which is already under immense strain, to have the resources in place to deal with FAIs efficiently and effectively. I confirm that the Scottish Conservatives support the general principles of the bill.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The first item of business this afternoon is a debate on motion S4M-14328, in the name of Paul Wheelhouse, on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden D...
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse) SNP
I am delighted to open the stage 1 debate on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Justice Committee for its ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I note at the start of the debate that we have a little bit of time in hand this afternoon. 14:46
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak as convener on behalf of the Justice Committee, which is the lead committee considering the bill. As members are aware—I r...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Lab
Did the committee look at the definition of what is in the public interest? In my experience, the definition is drawn so narrowly that issues that people fee...
Christine Grahame SNP
No—I think that it would be very dangerous for us to interfere with the independence of the Lord Advocate, who takes the decision on what is and what is not ...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lab
Like the committee convener, I would welcome that move. However, does she agree that the final report of perhaps a yearly return should be laid before the Pa...
Christine Grahame SNP
I return to what I said as a caveat at the beginning of my speech, which was that I speak with my convener’s hat on. Members have that on the record but I ca...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
On behalf of Labour members, I thank the clerks, the Scottish Parliament information centre and the witnesses who contributed to our stage 1 consideration. ...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome the stage 1 debate on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. I thank the many witnesses for their valuable contr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We are fortunate to have a little time in hand, so I can allow speeches of a generous six minutes. 15:12
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I apologise to the chamber for the fact that I will not be able to stay for the full debate because I have another pressing engagement. I refer members to my...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lab
As we have heard, it is now seven years since the Scottish Government commissioned Lord Cullen to review the system of fatal accident inquiries, and it is so...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Fatal accidents and sudden deaths are unforeseen tragedies. It is hard to comprehend how families and friends can deal with the aftermath of such tragedies. ...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Lab
We all recognise the importance of the debate. I congratulate Patricia Ferguson in particular on all that she has done to drive the agenda. I do not think th...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to participate in the stage 1 debate on modernising the fatal accident inquiry legislation. My experience of the system is in the context of th...
Patricia Ferguson Lab
I am grateful to the member for his comments and I sympathise entirely with him about the tragic constituency case that he is talking about. Will he therefor...
Willie Coffey SNP
I am keen to hear what the minister will have to say on summing up. I understand the explanations that have been given by the minister and others about the d...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Fatal accident inquiries provide an important opportunity to find out what went wrong and, ultimately, to learn in order that we can prevent something simila...
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
The bill is yet another example of the Scottish Government’s—and Parliament’s—bid to implement progressive policies for the benefit of the people of Scotland...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
A discussion of fatal accident inquiries will inevitably be emotive. Families who have experienced the loss of a loved one often seek nothing more than an ex...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
On 29 January 2009, Colin Love went for a swim beside a beautiful beach on Margarita Island in Venezuela. I have mentioned Colin previously in the chamber. H...
Margaret McDougall (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I have just joined the Justice Committee, so I was not part of the bill’s stage 1 scrutiny. I have listened with interest to the debate, and I have found it ...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
As a layperson—that is, a non-lawyer who is not a member of the Justice Committee—I do not propose to talk much about the technicalities of the bill. Instead...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
The bill is technical but, as Mike MacKenzie eloquently highlighted, no one in the debate has lost sight of its human element. We would do so at our cost—it ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Before we move to the closing speeches, I invite all members who have taken part in the debate to join us for them. 16:32
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, welcome the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. It is clear that...
Elaine Murray Lab
Fatal accident inquiries are inquiries into the circumstances of a death that are undertaken in the public interest to determine the time, place and cause of...
Christine Grahame SNP
I will give a hypothetical example. Let us say that a young mother who is suffering from severe postnatal depression and who has not been given the appropria...
Elaine Murray Lab
Indeed—and I think that there was a recent case of that type. However, an example does not provide a definition. In that case, the public interest is easier ...