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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 16 September 2015

16 Sep 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Future, Democracy and Devolution

I accept that point and that is why I made the point about the fiscal framework. However, my wider point is about the powers that this Parliament can gain, which other members have talked to in the context of the debate.

I want to enter into the constitutional spirit of the debate, in this week of all weeks. After all, Labour has a new leader—a genuine socialist. Politics is black and white again, and it is certainly not Blair. Neil Findlay is now the most influential Labour politician in Scotland, with the ear of the leader.

I want to make a constitutional suggestion to team Corbyn, although team Corbyn may be a concept that takes Labour unity a little far, judging by what we have been watching. However, Labour should go back to the future, as it did in the past, and embrace devolution within England. I believe that that is important for Scotland as well.

I fear that that will not happen because command and control socialism does not sit easily with decentralisation, so I doubt that there will be a Labour policy shift towards the obvious and only alternative to the constitutional morass of the UK—a federal country where the nations of England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland figure out a coherent way of working together. That is why I believe that the work of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee on intergovernmental relations is arguably the most important part of the work that is taking place at the moment.

A federal system creates a positive, unifying future for Scotland and the rest of the UK. Such a system is completely normal around the world for modern, complex democracies such as ours. It would be good for Scotland, and it is a pity that we cannot ask Parliament to support such a move with a vote this afternoon on the amendment that I lodged.

I doubt that nationalist friends in the chamber will embrace the progressive approach of a federal UK—not in Scotland, anyway. In Wales and Northern Ireland, nationalist parties recognise—and openly articulate—that future because they see the interdependence of their nations and the benefits that would flow.

The cabinet secretary mentioned last year’s referendum; it would have been a surprise were that not to have been raised this afternoon. I now read that Angela Constance and Richard Lochhead are leading lights of the campaign for a second referendum: “Yes 2”. I gently say to my friends on the SNP benches that most of us genuinely thought that when people said, “Once in a lifetime” they absolutely meant it. For many Scots, suggesting that we should go down the same route that we went down last year will be a considerable ask indeed.

The politics of today will be about the SNP’s short-term political positioning in making a judgment on how left wing to be. Jeremy Corbyn’s success in becoming Labour leader, and his socialism, can bring lost voters back to Labour. I suspect that Ms Sturgeon will not want to lose west central Scotland to the auld enemy, so Scotland can expect a battle on who is more left wing.

That matters in terms of what we are to look at in terms of the constitution and the future. It also leaves empty the centre and the right of British and Scottish politics. The Tories move ever more to the right, bringing to the UK Parliament a vindictive Trade Union Bill that not even Mrs Thatcher would have introduced. The bill is also bad politics: far from dividing Labour, it seems to have completely united the party, so it has not worked.

The issue that is every bit as important for our constitution in Scotland as for our future in Europe. We are about to witness, as we have all seen in the past, a Tory civil war. I heard Bill Cash on the radio the other morning, and I thought that we are indeed going back to the future.

That matters because the European question is an SNP condition for a second referendum on Scottish independence. The SNP has said that it would not work with other pro-European parties to face down the arguments for leaving Europe. That is disappointing, but hardly surprising. After all, just as the First Minister wanted David Cameron to win in May, so she wants England to vote to leave the EU because that helps the SNP and the case for Scottish independence.

All that makes the liberal, radical, progressive centre of politics essential. It is the gaping political hole, and there is a great opportunity not just in the UK but in Scotland. As I say openly to my party, that is why the Liberal Democrats will recover from the trauma of the past five years.

It is increasingly clear that there are only two future courses for Scotland—independence or federalism—and that federalism is the only viable future for the UK. Scotland is well placed to provide the drive and the route map towards a new future: a federal UK with a stable and lasting written constitution that honours the democratic decision of the people of Scotland last year.

Now is the time for that new start. It is time for a federal UK, and it is time to find people who want a lasting, progressive settlement for our nation amidst other nations.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14252, in the name of John Swinney, on Scotland’s future, democracy and devolution. 14:40
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to have this constitutional debate one year on from the referendum on Scotland’s independence, which took place on 18 September 201...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary has been speaking for nearly four minutes, and I interpret his argument as being that he signed up to the Smith commission reluctantly ...
John Swinney SNP
In the course of my comments, I will answer directly the point that Mr Johnstone has made, but I do not think that he could arrive at the conclusion that any...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Why does John Swinney only ever refer to a percentage of welfare spending instead of a percentage of spending, as most commentators would do?
John Swinney SNP
The reference to welfare spending is part of a clearly expressed argument about welfare spending. As far as total spending is concerned, the Smith commission...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Mr Swinney correctly describes the conclusions of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, and I accept the points that he has made; I was a member of that...
John Swinney SNP
The person who is in danger of conflating is Lewis Macdonald. The point that I am making is that, at absolute face value, when judged by the Devolution (Furt...
Gavin Brown Con
Come on!
John Swinney SNP
In this matter, we have most definitely done that. Even Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, is saying that the Scotland Bill does not deliver on the com...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Claire Baker to speak to and move amendment S4M-14252.2. You have 10 minutes, please. We are tight for time today. 14:56
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In the week of the one-year anniversary of the referendum, it is understandable that a lot of the focus in today’s debate will be on reflecting on that histo...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
I note the Labour Party’s call today for full rather than partial assignment of VAT. Does Claire Baker accept that that is not a revenue-raising power, as it...
Claire Baker Lab
I anticipated that intervention, as I saw that Stewart Hosie had lined it up for MSPs this afternoon. The SNP will know that the tax-raising powers on VAT a...
John Swinney SNP
Will Claire Baker clarify the Labour Party’s position on the fiscal framework? Does she think that I should sign up to a fiscal framework that she does not b...
Claire Baker Lab
Of course not, but we have no involvement in the negotiations. What I am asking for is greater transparency and accountability. At present, we have to rely o...
Alex Johnstone Con
Will the member give way?
Claire Baker Lab
I am sorry, but I am short of time. The Scottish Government claims that that important issue might lead to the rejection of powers. The public must be aware...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am delighted to take part in this debate. I am stimulated and encouraged by the Scottish Government’s chosen title for the debate, “Scotland’s Future, Demo...
John Swinney SNP
I am glad that Miss Goldie set out those words carefully. I thought that she was in danger of accusing me of something else as she expressed them. However, I...
Annabel Goldie Con
As ever, that was an adroit and gallant attempt by the cabinet secretary to exculpate himself. In fairness to Mr Swinney, I say that I of course understand ...
Mark McDonald SNP
Will the member give way?
Annabel Goldie Con
I want to make progress, if the member will forgive me. In the more detailed analysis of the Scotland Bill by the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Thank you, Miss Goldie. I look forward to checking the spelling of “peelie-wally” in the Official Report. We are just about where we should be with the deba...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
Like many members, I have been reflecting on the events of the independence referendum. In the immediate aftermath, the decision left me utterly crushed, yet...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I agree with what Claire Baker said on decentralised powers, but I will focus on the immediate issue of the Scotland Bill. I hope that the Parliament will u...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I must say that, when Malcolm Chisholm said that there were two issues with Lord Sewel, I thought that he handled the issue very delicately indeed. I had fo...
John Swinney SNP
Perhaps I can help Mr Scott in his analysis by pointing out that what convinced the Scottish Government to support a legislative consent motion on the Scotla...
Tavish Scott LD
I accept that point and that is why I made the point about the fiscal framework. However, my wider point is about the powers that this Parliament can gain, w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I have been generous with the first three speakers, but I must now ask everyone to keep to their six minutes, please. 15:33