Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 16 September 2015
16 Sep 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Future, Democracy and Devolution
I must say that, when Malcolm Chisholm said that there were two issues with Lord Sewel, I thought that he handled the issue very delicately indeed.
I had forgotten that, as the Deputy First Minister reminded us, we were 10 weeks in that hot room, sweating over something that just does not seem to be loved, so I do not quite know where I will ever get that time back again.
The Government’s motion appears to be a straightforward endorsement of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee’s work on the current Scotland Bill, so I have been a little surprised that the SNP appears to have wanted to use such an endorsement as a trigger to veto the bill in radio interviews that have been taking place this week, and indeed as a condition for a second independence referendum.
I am puzzled by that because Mr Swinney’s Government threatened the Scotland Act 2012 with a veto but ultimately the Government accepted more powers, which the act devolved. I cannot see the circumstances in which the nationalist Government here in Edinburgh would veto more powers for this Parliament. I totally accept the Deputy First Minister’s point on the fiscal framework—that is a separate matter—but I struggle to imagine circumstances in which this Parliament would not gain by having more powers.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14252, in the name of John Swinney, on Scotland’s future, democracy and devolution. 14:40
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to have this constitutional debate one year on from the referendum on Scotland’s independence, which took place on 18 September 201...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
The cabinet secretary has been speaking for nearly four minutes, and I interpret his argument as being that he signed up to the Smith commission reluctantly ...
John Swinney
SNP
In the course of my comments, I will answer directly the point that Mr Johnstone has made, but I do not think that he could arrive at the conclusion that any...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Why does John Swinney only ever refer to a percentage of welfare spending instead of a percentage of spending, as most commentators would do?
John Swinney
SNP
The reference to welfare spending is part of a clearly expressed argument about welfare spending. As far as total spending is concerned, the Smith commission...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Mr Swinney correctly describes the conclusions of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, and I accept the points that he has made; I was a member of that...
John Swinney
SNP
The person who is in danger of conflating is Lewis Macdonald. The point that I am making is that, at absolute face value, when judged by the Devolution (Furt...
Gavin Brown
Con
Come on!
John Swinney
SNP
In this matter, we have most definitely done that. Even Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, is saying that the Scotland Bill does not deliver on the com...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I call Claire Baker to speak to and move amendment S4M-14252.2. You have 10 minutes, please. We are tight for time today. 14:56
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
In the week of the one-year anniversary of the referendum, it is understandable that a lot of the focus in today’s debate will be on reflecting on that histo...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
SNP
I note the Labour Party’s call today for full rather than partial assignment of VAT. Does Claire Baker accept that that is not a revenue-raising power, as it...
Claire Baker
Lab
I anticipated that intervention, as I saw that Stewart Hosie had lined it up for MSPs this afternoon. The SNP will know that the tax-raising powers on VAT a...
John Swinney
SNP
Will Claire Baker clarify the Labour Party’s position on the fiscal framework? Does she think that I should sign up to a fiscal framework that she does not b...
Claire Baker
Lab
Of course not, but we have no involvement in the negotiations. What I am asking for is greater transparency and accountability. At present, we have to rely o...
Alex Johnstone
Con
Will the member give way?
Claire Baker
Lab
I am sorry, but I am short of time. The Scottish Government claims that that important issue might lead to the rejection of powers. The public must be aware...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am delighted to take part in this debate. I am stimulated and encouraged by the Scottish Government’s chosen title for the debate, “Scotland’s Future, Demo...
John Swinney
SNP
I am glad that Miss Goldie set out those words carefully. I thought that she was in danger of accusing me of something else as she expressed them. However, I...
Annabel Goldie
Con
As ever, that was an adroit and gallant attempt by the cabinet secretary to exculpate himself. In fairness to Mr Swinney, I say that I of course understand ...
Mark McDonald
SNP
Will the member give way?
Annabel Goldie
Con
I want to make progress, if the member will forgive me. In the more detailed analysis of the Scotland Bill by the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
Thank you, Miss Goldie. I look forward to checking the spelling of “peelie-wally” in the Official Report. We are just about where we should be with the deba...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP)
SNP
Like many members, I have been reflecting on the events of the independence referendum. In the immediate aftermath, the decision left me utterly crushed, yet...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
I agree with what Claire Baker said on decentralised powers, but I will focus on the immediate issue of the Scotland Bill. I hope that the Parliament will u...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD)
LD
I must say that, when Malcolm Chisholm said that there were two issues with Lord Sewel, I thought that he handled the issue very delicately indeed. I had fo...
John Swinney
SNP
Perhaps I can help Mr Scott in his analysis by pointing out that what convinced the Scottish Government to support a legislative consent motion on the Scotla...
Tavish Scott
LD
I accept that point and that is why I made the point about the fiscal framework. However, my wider point is about the powers that this Parliament can gain, w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I have been generous with the first three speakers, but I must now ask everyone to keep to their six minutes, please. 15:33