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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 16 September 2015

16 Sep 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Future, Democracy and Devolution

Like many members, I have been reflecting on the events of the independence referendum. In the immediate aftermath, the decision left me utterly crushed, yet, strangely, a year later I find myself almost celebrating that historic occasion.

Perhaps that is something to do with my being a card-carrying member of the tartan army, which has enabled me to find some joy in glorious defeat. However, the referendum was also a remarkable democratic process, as John Swinney said, which led to Scotland becoming a different and better place, with the most extraordinarily engaged people and with the bar of expectations on what Scotland is capable of achieving raised to hitherto unforeseen heights.

It is in that context that we consider the now-infamous vow, which suggested home rule and near-federalism, and the Smith commission recommendations that we debate today.

I do not want to re-rehearse what many individuals and organisations have said about the Smith process being too rushed or about the bill not containing significant additional powers, although I sincerely hope that the UK Government responds to those calls. The Scotland Bill that is before the UK Parliament will soon enter its report stage, so we must do all that we can to persuade a Tory Government to implement Smith in full and to deal with the positive criticisms that are laid out in the constructive letter that was sent from the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee to David Mundell on Monday.

I strongly believe that, when we come to decision time, we should all support the Scottish Government’s motion because our speaking with one voice will provide the Parliament with its best opportunity of seeing the bill get as close as possible to delivering Smith in full, ensuring that there is clarity of intent and ironing out any potential dangers.

There are those—including the Prime Minister today at Prime Minister’s questions—who argue that the bill, in its current state, delivers Smith in full, but they know perfectly well that it does not. To pretend otherwise is to do this Parliament and, more important, the people of Scotland a disservice. The very reasonable letter that was sent to the Secretary of State for Scotland earlier this week outlined in considerable detail the scale of the job that remains to be done by the UK Government, which John Swinney has alluded to. I will concentrate on three key aspects.

First, I believe that there is, at the very least, potential for dispute over whether the Scottish Parliament will have the competence to create new benefits in devolved areas. There is a significant body of evidence that Parliament will be able to create new benefits only in a much narrower area because the legislative mechanism that the bill uses devolves responsibility for certain specific benefits through a series of new exceptions to the existing reservations in the Scotland Act 1998. It is argued that, if a new benefit is not provided for in the bill, it will remain explicitly reserved, with no exception.

That could have the perhaps unintended effect of limiting the policy flexibility of a future Scottish Parliament despite the fact that the Smith report makes it abundantly clear that it intends no such limitations, stating simply:

“The Scottish Parliament will have new powers to create new benefits in areas of devolved responsibility”.

As Professor Aileen McHarg said in her compelling evidence to the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, it would be prudent to put the matter beyond doubt through the inclusion of an express provision in the bill. We should ask the UK Government to do just that.

Secondly, on the issue of risk and reward balance, many people, including Professor David Bell, have argued that the limited basket of tax-raising powers in the bill may not produce sufficient receipts to increase tax in proportion with future liabilities such as an ageing population. It is therefore imperative that the fiscal framework that is agreed between the two Governments deals with the specific detail of how such matters will be balanced out in future funding settlements. I say that because I cannot see any circumstances in which the Scottish Parliament can safely agree to any bill unless those matters are appropriately and transparently addressed in the fiscal framework.

Thirdly, and in conclusion, I will dance on the head of a pin on the matter of the permanency of this Parliament. We all know the difficulty in that area. In theory, no Parliament can bind in law its successors, and no rule suggesting that a particular institution be a permanent constitutional fixture can guarantee that. Therefore, whatever provisions are finally agreed in the bill, they are likely to be largely symbolic—I accept that. However, I believe strongly that symbolism and a statement of intent are hugely important as far as this institution is concerned.

The Scottish Parliament was brought into being through the consent of the people in a referendum; surely it goes without saying that it can be disestablished only with the consent of the Scottish people voting in a referendum. Such a provision must find its way into the bill. Yes, it would be highly symbolic; nevertheless, it would be a statement of intent recognising the sovereignty of the Scottish people.

I believe that all members of this Parliament are signed up to that concept. Therefore, it is up to us to put as much pressure as we can on the UK Government in the coming weeks to lodge appropriate amendments to ensure that the Smith commission’s proposals are delivered in full in the areas that I have outlined and in the areas that the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee has outlined in a wider context. I recommend that all members support the Government’s motion. We should unite behind it to make sure that we get the job done.

15:20  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14252, in the name of John Swinney, on Scotland’s future, democracy and devolution. 14:40
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to have this constitutional debate one year on from the referendum on Scotland’s independence, which took place on 18 September 201...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary has been speaking for nearly four minutes, and I interpret his argument as being that he signed up to the Smith commission reluctantly ...
John Swinney SNP
In the course of my comments, I will answer directly the point that Mr Johnstone has made, but I do not think that he could arrive at the conclusion that any...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Why does John Swinney only ever refer to a percentage of welfare spending instead of a percentage of spending, as most commentators would do?
John Swinney SNP
The reference to welfare spending is part of a clearly expressed argument about welfare spending. As far as total spending is concerned, the Smith commission...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Mr Swinney correctly describes the conclusions of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, and I accept the points that he has made; I was a member of that...
John Swinney SNP
The person who is in danger of conflating is Lewis Macdonald. The point that I am making is that, at absolute face value, when judged by the Devolution (Furt...
Gavin Brown Con
Come on!
John Swinney SNP
In this matter, we have most definitely done that. Even Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, is saying that the Scotland Bill does not deliver on the com...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Claire Baker to speak to and move amendment S4M-14252.2. You have 10 minutes, please. We are tight for time today. 14:56
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In the week of the one-year anniversary of the referendum, it is understandable that a lot of the focus in today’s debate will be on reflecting on that histo...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
I note the Labour Party’s call today for full rather than partial assignment of VAT. Does Claire Baker accept that that is not a revenue-raising power, as it...
Claire Baker Lab
I anticipated that intervention, as I saw that Stewart Hosie had lined it up for MSPs this afternoon. The SNP will know that the tax-raising powers on VAT a...
John Swinney SNP
Will Claire Baker clarify the Labour Party’s position on the fiscal framework? Does she think that I should sign up to a fiscal framework that she does not b...
Claire Baker Lab
Of course not, but we have no involvement in the negotiations. What I am asking for is greater transparency and accountability. At present, we have to rely o...
Alex Johnstone Con
Will the member give way?
Claire Baker Lab
I am sorry, but I am short of time. The Scottish Government claims that that important issue might lead to the rejection of powers. The public must be aware...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am delighted to take part in this debate. I am stimulated and encouraged by the Scottish Government’s chosen title for the debate, “Scotland’s Future, Demo...
John Swinney SNP
I am glad that Miss Goldie set out those words carefully. I thought that she was in danger of accusing me of something else as she expressed them. However, I...
Annabel Goldie Con
As ever, that was an adroit and gallant attempt by the cabinet secretary to exculpate himself. In fairness to Mr Swinney, I say that I of course understand ...
Mark McDonald SNP
Will the member give way?
Annabel Goldie Con
I want to make progress, if the member will forgive me. In the more detailed analysis of the Scotland Bill by the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Thank you, Miss Goldie. I look forward to checking the spelling of “peelie-wally” in the Official Report. We are just about where we should be with the deba...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
Like many members, I have been reflecting on the events of the independence referendum. In the immediate aftermath, the decision left me utterly crushed, yet...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I agree with what Claire Baker said on decentralised powers, but I will focus on the immediate issue of the Scotland Bill. I hope that the Parliament will u...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I must say that, when Malcolm Chisholm said that there were two issues with Lord Sewel, I thought that he handled the issue very delicately indeed. I had fo...
John Swinney SNP
Perhaps I can help Mr Scott in his analysis by pointing out that what convinced the Scottish Government to support a legislative consent motion on the Scotla...
Tavish Scott LD
I accept that point and that is why I made the point about the fiscal framework. However, my wider point is about the powers that this Parliament can gain, w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I have been generous with the first three speakers, but I must now ask everyone to keep to their six minutes, please. 15:33