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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 16 September 2015

16 Sep 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Future, Democracy and Devolution
Swinney, John SNP Perthshire North Watch on SPTV

In this matter, we have most definitely done that. Even Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, is saying that the Scotland Bill does not deliver on the commitments that were made in the Smith commission. That, to me, is crystal-clear evidence that the United Kingdom Government has got to move, and to move significantly, during the remaining passage of the bill, to which we will turn shortly when that UK bill returns for its report stage in the House of Commons.

We know clearly the areas in which the bill needs to be improved. They include the restrictive definitions of “carer” and “disability”; the absence of new powers to create benefits in areas of devolved responsibility; the restrictions on the length of employment-support programmes that can be delivered; and restrictions on the type of people who can be offered help. The bill needs clarity on the Crown Estate provisions and future economic assets such as Fort Kinnaird; it needs a provision that protects this Parliament’s interests by including clearly the full scope of the Sewel convention, including its need for the Parliament’s consent to changes to its own competence and that of Scottish ministers; and it needs to respect the spirit of devolution by removing vetoes for UK ministers in the crucial areas of universal credit and energy schemes. Those are among the issues that require to be addressed when the bill’s report stage is reached in the House of Commons.

I therefore invite Parliament to join me in urging the Secretary of State for Scotland to engage closely with the Scottish Government to produce amendments that we have already suggested to the UK Government, that accurately reflect the Smith commission report and have the support of both Governments.

We know that the powers of the bill fall short of both the vow and the recommendations of the Smith commission; we will continue to demand that those promises be delivered. At the same time, the Scottish Government is acting with pace and with creativity to be ready to use the limited powers that are proposed, and we will do so in consultation with others.

In the programme for government, we set out some early policy priorities. They include: a social security bill in the first year of the new session, to give effect to our new social security powers; the abolition of the bedroom tax as soon as possible when we have the powers to do so; improved support for people to move into employment through reform of the work programme and of the work choice scheme; improved access to priority business and tourism markets by reducing air passenger duty by 50 per cent from 2018; early action on gender balance on public boards; the abolition of fees for employment tribunals; and management of the assets of the Crown Estate in Scotland, in order to maximise benefit to the Scottish economy and to local communities. Those are some of the early priorities that the Scottish Government will take forward through utilisation of the powers that will come to us as a consequence of the passage of the Scotland Bill.

I want to say a few words about the fiscal framework that will govern financial relationships between the Governments in the future. The fiscal framework must give the Scottish Government the flexibility that it needs to create a fair and prosperous Scotland and to use the powers that we have effectively. We know that that must be done in a responsible and sustainable manner, which is how we have always used our fiscal powers.

In my evidence to the Finance Committee’s inquiry, I have set out some of the key elements that we need to see in the fiscal framework. We need block-grant adjustments for devolved taxes that reflect receipts at the point of transfer, based on an agreed methodology and data. We need transfers for social security that reflect the full cost of the benefits that will be devolved, we need changes to the block grant that reflect the full cost of administering the new powers, and we need the ability to increase the amount of capital spending materially through capital borrowing powers.

Most fundamentally, we need a well-designed fiscal framework that ensures that further devolution provides the right incentives and increases accountability, and links the Scottish Government’s budget to Scottish economic performance. We should retain the rewards of our success, as we will bear the risks. When the Scottish economy outperforms that of the rest of the UK, our spending power should increase, so it is absolutely essential that the fiscal framework provide the Scottish Government with genuine flexibility and choice to pursue our own distinct policies.

The framework will be agreed jointly by both Governments and we are aiming to conclude negotiations by the autumn. I am currently involved in discussions with the Treasury, in that respect. However, I want to make it clear to Parliament, as I have told the Finance Committee before, that the Scottish Government will not recommend that this Parliament give consent to the bill without an agreed fiscal framework that is fair to Scotland. I would have no hesitation in refusing to recommend a proposal that did not provide us with the ability to use our powers properly and flexibly to support the people of Scotland, to address our own priorities and to improve our economy.

I want to bring my remarks to a close by reflecting on what the Scotland Bill tells us about the condition of democracy in Scotland today. The driving force for what became the Smith commission process was the clear momentum for change that was generated during the referendum campaign, but since then we have seen a return to business as usual. That graphically illustrates the mismatch between democracy and devolution in this country.

The Smith commission was, in the end, a party-driven exercise. The people were given little say in its process and none in its conclusions. We missed many opportunities in that process—perhaps because of the lack of public pressure in a closed process.

The Scottish Government therefore proposed, with the support of the Scottish Trades Union Congress, full devolution of employment law. That was not supported in the Smith commission. We have seen the consequences of that in the Trade Union Bill this week. The Scottish Government, with the support of many stakeholders across Scottish society, proposed that social protection be devolved in full. Again, that was not supported by other parties, and the consequences of that can be seen in the cuts to welfare that have been driven through Whitehall today.

That demonstrates that the Scottish Parliament must be equipped with the powers and responsibilities to enable us to take decisions that meet the expectations, needs, priorities and choices of the people of Scotland, and that is what the Scottish Government will argue for.

I move,

That the Parliament notes the establishment of the all-party Smith Commission following the 2014 referendum on independence and the commitment of the UK Government to legislate to implement the recommendations of the commission in full; further notes the findings of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee that the Scotland Bill in its current form does not deliver the recommendations of the commission in full; further notes that no amendments to the Bill were accepted at its committee stage in the House of Commons; urges the UK Government to bring forward amendments at the Bill’s report stage to give effect to the Smith Commission recommendations and in particular to meet the standards set by the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, and recognises the need for a satisfactory and fair fiscal framework to allow the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government to make effective use of the powers in the Bill.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14252, in the name of John Swinney, on Scotland’s future, democracy and devolution. 14:40
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to have this constitutional debate one year on from the referendum on Scotland’s independence, which took place on 18 September 201...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary has been speaking for nearly four minutes, and I interpret his argument as being that he signed up to the Smith commission reluctantly ...
John Swinney SNP
In the course of my comments, I will answer directly the point that Mr Johnstone has made, but I do not think that he could arrive at the conclusion that any...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Why does John Swinney only ever refer to a percentage of welfare spending instead of a percentage of spending, as most commentators would do?
John Swinney SNP
The reference to welfare spending is part of a clearly expressed argument about welfare spending. As far as total spending is concerned, the Smith commission...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Mr Swinney correctly describes the conclusions of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, and I accept the points that he has made; I was a member of that...
John Swinney SNP
The person who is in danger of conflating is Lewis Macdonald. The point that I am making is that, at absolute face value, when judged by the Devolution (Furt...
Gavin Brown Con
Come on!
John Swinney SNP
In this matter, we have most definitely done that. Even Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, is saying that the Scotland Bill does not deliver on the com...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Claire Baker to speak to and move amendment S4M-14252.2. You have 10 minutes, please. We are tight for time today. 14:56
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In the week of the one-year anniversary of the referendum, it is understandable that a lot of the focus in today’s debate will be on reflecting on that histo...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
I note the Labour Party’s call today for full rather than partial assignment of VAT. Does Claire Baker accept that that is not a revenue-raising power, as it...
Claire Baker Lab
I anticipated that intervention, as I saw that Stewart Hosie had lined it up for MSPs this afternoon. The SNP will know that the tax-raising powers on VAT a...
John Swinney SNP
Will Claire Baker clarify the Labour Party’s position on the fiscal framework? Does she think that I should sign up to a fiscal framework that she does not b...
Claire Baker Lab
Of course not, but we have no involvement in the negotiations. What I am asking for is greater transparency and accountability. At present, we have to rely o...
Alex Johnstone Con
Will the member give way?
Claire Baker Lab
I am sorry, but I am short of time. The Scottish Government claims that that important issue might lead to the rejection of powers. The public must be aware...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am delighted to take part in this debate. I am stimulated and encouraged by the Scottish Government’s chosen title for the debate, “Scotland’s Future, Demo...
John Swinney SNP
I am glad that Miss Goldie set out those words carefully. I thought that she was in danger of accusing me of something else as she expressed them. However, I...
Annabel Goldie Con
As ever, that was an adroit and gallant attempt by the cabinet secretary to exculpate himself. In fairness to Mr Swinney, I say that I of course understand ...
Mark McDonald SNP
Will the member give way?
Annabel Goldie Con
I want to make progress, if the member will forgive me. In the more detailed analysis of the Scotland Bill by the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Thank you, Miss Goldie. I look forward to checking the spelling of “peelie-wally” in the Official Report. We are just about where we should be with the deba...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
Like many members, I have been reflecting on the events of the independence referendum. In the immediate aftermath, the decision left me utterly crushed, yet...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I agree with what Claire Baker said on decentralised powers, but I will focus on the immediate issue of the Scotland Bill. I hope that the Parliament will u...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I must say that, when Malcolm Chisholm said that there were two issues with Lord Sewel, I thought that he handled the issue very delicately indeed. I had fo...
John Swinney SNP
Perhaps I can help Mr Scott in his analysis by pointing out that what convinced the Scottish Government to support a legislative consent motion on the Scotla...
Tavish Scott LD
I accept that point and that is why I made the point about the fiscal framework. However, my wider point is about the powers that this Parliament can gain, w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I have been generous with the first three speakers, but I must now ask everyone to keep to their six minutes, please. 15:33