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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 January 2015

29 Jan 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Chisholm, Malcolm Lab Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

I support the bill, which feels very much like the last nail in the coffin of the poll tax, but we should remember—keeping things in perspective—that that actually happened in England more than 10 years ago.

Although I support the bill, I think that we should recognise that there are some genuine concerns and take them seriously, and we should also question some of the details of the bill.

Having heard the evidence in the Finance Committee, I think that the main concern is about the possible effect of the bill on council tax collection. I therefore think that we have to send out a very clear message that this is a one-off bill because of the particular circumstances of the poll tax and because, to a large extent, there is not much left that could be collected, given that many local authorities recognised that and have stopped collecting already.

We also have to recognise, although Conservative colleagues may not agree, that the poll tax was a completely unacceptable tax—certainly by far the most controversial tax of my long life—because it bore no relationship to the ability to pay. The bill is already in a unique category, which means that we should not draw analogies too much between it and the council tax.

I also recognise that some people feel that it is unfair that they have paid and others have not. We have all had letters about that. Again, however, I think that we have to repeat some of those points to them about the uniqueness of the tax, councils not collecting, there being not much to collect and so on.

The Finance Committee report raised certain questions, and to some extent the cabinet secretary has already responded to most of them. The first was whether the bill is necessary at all, since we did not find evidence about the use of electoral registers either currently or prospectively. We have had two examples quoted—by Alex Rowley and Mark McDonald—of politicians saying that they were going to use them. I had not heard that before. It may well be that that was the trigger for the bill, but equally the committee heard Glasgow City Council saying that it did not believe that all the new people on the register were around at the time of the poll tax. There are obviously conflicting views on that, but given the evidence that has been mentioned today I think that we have to accept that there was perhaps a certain trigger that the First Minister was responding to.

The point about consultation is important as well. The Finance Committee put it quite delicately and tactfully, saying that consultation should take place prior to legislation. I think that the cabinet secretary suggested that that is not always the case, but I think it is a feature of the Scottish Parliament not just that committees consult on bills when they are published but that Governments tend to consult on the contents of bills before they appear.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12176, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. 15:31
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Were local authorities consulted on the principle of the bill?
John Swinney SNP
No. The Government decided on the principle of the bill. The Government takes policy decisions and then we consult on how to take forward those policy decisi...
Gavin Brown Con
I take the cabinet secretary’s point on that, but surely to goodness this is a breach of the principle that he has just espoused.
John Swinney SNP
It is not a breach of the principle that I have espoused. Mr Brown should look at the data that is available to Parliament. I take one particular example: An...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Finance Committee in the debate. The bill provides for an end to the collection of community charge, or poll tax, deb...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab
We should recap on where we are with the bill. We are here today because before the referendum we saw a massive increase in people registering to vote—someth...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
It probably will not come as a great surprise to learn that we will not be supporting the bill at decision time today. We do not take that decision for any g...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Would the member accept that there are other principles at play here, such as mercy?
Gavin Brown Con
Let us throw in another, then: the idea that two people both vehemently disagreed with the community charge but one of them paid it and made sacrifices to do...
John Swinney SNP
Now that, for the last financial year for which data is available, we are collecting £327,000, whereas there is £425 million outstanding, would Mr Brown care...
Gavin Brown Con
The Deputy First Minister will know as well as I do that COSLA is not enthusiastic about the bill and that the majority of councils that responded to the com...
John Swinney SNP
So why is it on the statute?
Gavin Brown Con
Mr Swinney asks why it is there, but he put that figure on page 1 of the policy memorandum. He does not like the figure, but he is the one who put it down th...
John Swinney SNP
Mr Brown has in no way addressed the fact that, in the most recent year, we are now collecting £327,000. If the trajectory carried on, it would be a lower am...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
We do not have a lot of time, Mr Brown, but I will give you an extra minute.
Gavin Brown Con
We can justify it simply because COSLA and the councils that gave evidence to the Finance Committee said that there was not a need for legislation. They are ...
John Swinney SNP
Yes, I know.
Gavin Brown Con
Mr Swinney claims to know, but he did not carry out a consultation. He said that he consulted COSLA, but the Scottish Government did not formally do so. We w...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
There are a few issues that need to be dealt with. First, the use of the £425 million figure, which was used when the discussion first took place, has been u...
Gavin Brown Con
Will the member give way?
Mark McDonald SNP
I am in my last 30 seconds.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can give you more time, if you wish.
Mark McDonald SNP
In that case, I will take Mr Brown’s intervention.
Gavin Brown Con
Will Mr McDonald acknowledge that Dundee City Council, which he quoted and which is in favour of the bill, raised in quite intelligent terms the concerns to ...
Mark McDonald SNP
I did not say at any point that those concerns were not raised. I am simply saying that, if those concerns were in fact material, I would expect to see evide...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You must begin to close now.
Mark McDonald SNP
The position was not restricted to one council leader; there was a pattern of potential pursuit through the referendum electoral registers. I think that the...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I support the bill, which feels very much like the last nail in the coffin of the poll tax, but we should remember—keeping things in perspective—that that ac...