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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 January 2015

29 Jan 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Swinney, John SNP Perthshire North Watch on SPTV

No. The Government decided on the principle of the bill. The Government takes policy decisions and then we consult on how to take forward those policy decisions. I cannot think of many cases in which we have consulted on the principle of an issue without setting out the Government’s policy position. We consult on the details of our proposals.

I acknowledge that consultation should take place prior to the introduction of primary legislation, which is a point that the Finance Committee made in its stage 1 report on the bill, but there will be circumstances in which the Government believes that we should act swiftly and in which Parliament is prepared to support such action and to adopt the expedited approach. We have sought the agreement of Parliament to go through an expedited bill process to enable us to make the bill effective from 1 February 2015 and ensure that there is clarity before the start of the next financial year. I am grateful to the parliamentary authorities for that agreement.

The Government decided to act because we were concerned that certain local authority leaders had expressed an appetite for using the information that was gathered from voter registration for the independence referendum to reactivate the pursuit of many of the outstanding arrears. We felt that that sat uncomfortably with what we believe was wide appreciation throughout the country for the upsurge in democratic participation during the referendum, which was supported and complimented across the political spectrum. We felt that it would be a rather strange conclusion to that democratic process to use the information that had been gathered to pursue historical debts from a tax that is discredited and which has not been operational in Scotland for more than 20 years.

We wanted to do two things: to act expeditiously to address that point, which is why we have followed a shorter consultation process; and to make it crystal clear that local authorities were absolved of their obligations to collect poll tax debt, which, as I explained to the Finance Committee, was our reason for introducing the bill.

I am aware that some public opinion does not support the ending of recovery of community charge debts. I have received a number of letters on the issue from members on behalf of constituents and from members of the public. I understand the concerns that members of the public who have paid their community charge, as I have done, have expressed. I start from the basic principle that people should pay their taxes, and I do not support people not paying taxes for which they are liable. However, in this case, we are dealing with a tax that lasted for four years, that was the subject of massive political controversy and enormous political disruption, and that was concluded over 20 years ago.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12176, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. 15:31
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Were local authorities consulted on the principle of the bill?
John Swinney SNP
No. The Government decided on the principle of the bill. The Government takes policy decisions and then we consult on how to take forward those policy decisi...
Gavin Brown Con
I take the cabinet secretary’s point on that, but surely to goodness this is a breach of the principle that he has just espoused.
John Swinney SNP
It is not a breach of the principle that I have espoused. Mr Brown should look at the data that is available to Parliament. I take one particular example: An...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Finance Committee in the debate. The bill provides for an end to the collection of community charge, or poll tax, deb...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab
We should recap on where we are with the bill. We are here today because before the referendum we saw a massive increase in people registering to vote—someth...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
It probably will not come as a great surprise to learn that we will not be supporting the bill at decision time today. We do not take that decision for any g...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Would the member accept that there are other principles at play here, such as mercy?
Gavin Brown Con
Let us throw in another, then: the idea that two people both vehemently disagreed with the community charge but one of them paid it and made sacrifices to do...
John Swinney SNP
Now that, for the last financial year for which data is available, we are collecting £327,000, whereas there is £425 million outstanding, would Mr Brown care...
Gavin Brown Con
The Deputy First Minister will know as well as I do that COSLA is not enthusiastic about the bill and that the majority of councils that responded to the com...
John Swinney SNP
So why is it on the statute?
Gavin Brown Con
Mr Swinney asks why it is there, but he put that figure on page 1 of the policy memorandum. He does not like the figure, but he is the one who put it down th...
John Swinney SNP
Mr Brown has in no way addressed the fact that, in the most recent year, we are now collecting £327,000. If the trajectory carried on, it would be a lower am...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
We do not have a lot of time, Mr Brown, but I will give you an extra minute.
Gavin Brown Con
We can justify it simply because COSLA and the councils that gave evidence to the Finance Committee said that there was not a need for legislation. They are ...
John Swinney SNP
Yes, I know.
Gavin Brown Con
Mr Swinney claims to know, but he did not carry out a consultation. He said that he consulted COSLA, but the Scottish Government did not formally do so. We w...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
There are a few issues that need to be dealt with. First, the use of the £425 million figure, which was used when the discussion first took place, has been u...
Gavin Brown Con
Will the member give way?
Mark McDonald SNP
I am in my last 30 seconds.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can give you more time, if you wish.
Mark McDonald SNP
In that case, I will take Mr Brown’s intervention.
Gavin Brown Con
Will Mr McDonald acknowledge that Dundee City Council, which he quoted and which is in favour of the bill, raised in quite intelligent terms the concerns to ...
Mark McDonald SNP
I did not say at any point that those concerns were not raised. I am simply saying that, if those concerns were in fact material, I would expect to see evide...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You must begin to close now.
Mark McDonald SNP
The position was not restricted to one council leader; there was a pattern of potential pursuit through the referendum electoral registers. I think that the...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I support the bill, which feels very much like the last nail in the coffin of the poll tax, but we should remember—keeping things in perspective—that that ac...