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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 May 2015

27 May 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

As a co-sponsor of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill, I have to say that I have wrestled with the content of anything that I might say in its support this afternoon more than I have with any other speech that I have given in this Parliament. In five minutes, there is really not an opportunity to make the detailed argument that one would like to make, so one falls back slightly on generalities.

It is a significant issue of substance that we in this Parliament are entrusted to resolve, and one on which we defer to our conscience. The most recent example of such an issue was equal marriage. Outside the chamber, in participating in the public debate, there have been some familiar faces on the other side of the argument as I have gone around. One consistent view that I have come across is the “the end of the world is nigh” tendency. That debate was, of course, a life-and-death matter for some; this is literally a life-and-death matter.

I should say that some members might want to leave at this point, because this morning I received a very violent and abusive phone call from a member of the public who told me that if I spoke in support of the bill in the debate this afternoon, I was doomed, in every sense of the word, and that a greater force would strike me down in the course of my speech. In the circumstances, I sat very deliberately next to Mr Fraser, believing that a bit of rough justice would be appropriate. [Laughter.]

However, I have read about 20-year-olds who might be fed up with life queueing round the block because they would want to opt for assisted suicide; I have heard about all those greedy relatives who would apparently coerce all their loved ones into assisted suicide—as Patrick Harvie said, they could do that now outwith the framework of the law; and I have heard people say that it would be the end of palliative care. There must be a much more measured debate, and I am grateful for the tone that has been struck in the chamber this afternoon.

I think that the nadir of all of this came in a debate in which I was engaged with the Care Not Killing organisation. After a bloodless PowerPoint presentation on nine points, the person said as a tenth point to an audience of elderly people:

“This was all initiated by Hitler during the second world war. I draw no conclusions from that; I leave you to draw your own.”

That is absolutely shameful. I think that all sides in this argument, irrespective of their perspective, would want to ensure that, were the bill to be passed, the post-legislative scrutiny and everything that the Parliament did thereafter were designed to ensure that there was no coercion and that the legislation operated entirely in the spirit that was intended.

As Patrick Harvie said, this is Margo MacDonald’s bill and, respecting that, he has not brought forward amendments. However, if members read the exemplary evidence that he gave to the Health and Sport Committee on 17 February, they will see that it is perfectly apparent that the proponents of the bill are open to a series of amendments being lodged to make a better piece of legislation. There are many suggestions from the Law Society of Scotland that make perfect sense and to which I will return.

I respect that many colleagues might be opposed to the bill for different reasons: some through conviction and some through faith. I am an unconfirmed agnostic, as I have said before, so I cannot share an objection based on faith, but I have noticed that many of faith are, in fact, supporters of the principles of the bill. Some are opposed to the bill either because they object to its aims, or because they object to the particular workings of the bill as drafted—that is why I support the calls by Mike MacKenzie, Liam McArthur, Mary Fee and others to allow the bill to proceed to stage 2, specifically because we have been here before.

If we are not to keep coming back to the Parliament with this issue, we have a duty to those—we understand it to be the majority of the population—who are sympathetic to the bill’s aims to create as workable a bill as we can and then let the Parliament divide on the principle of whether the bill should go forward. If we do that, outside of the Parliament Scotland would know that the bill is not passing—if it is not passing—not because there are some clauses in it that people are not sure are workable, but because members do not agree with it. I think that a far clearer and greater service would be done if we went to that phase.

I have heard talk of palliative care, but I had a constituent who suffered from vascular Parkinsonism and endured a distressing end, with her family, and suffered a death that she had sought to avoid. I say to those who talk about palliative care that, first, we have relied on the voluntary sector far too much and that, with an ageing population, we will have to invest much more heavily in palliative care as we go forward. However, for some of the 80 people—just 80, and not the thousands who benefit from palliative care—who might exercise the option of assisted suicide, their particular condition is one that is not relieved by the palliative care option and the bill would give them the option to choose.

Jean Clement-Smith Carlaw, my late grandmother of some 20 years now, was a passionate advocate of this cause and helped shape and inform the convictions that I eventually settled upon—grandparents are great things; they have lived long and have seen much. I speak today in her name—she endured, unfortunately, the very end that she sought to avoid—and in the name of many others who are suffering today and those who hope not to have to suffer in the future.

16:04  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-13258, in the name of Patrick Harvie, on stage 1 of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill. I will try to c...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I express my gratitude for the opportunity to bring the bill to the stage that it has reached today. In doing so, I thank the Health and Sport Committee, the...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Bob Doris to speak on behalf of the Health and Sport Committee. Mr Doris, you have around 11 minutes. 14:56
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
My role as deputy convener of the Health and Sport Committee in this afternoon’s debate is to present to the chamber the committee’s findings and its recomme...
Patrick Harvie Green
I did not agree with everything that Dr Hutchison said in evidence, but I did agree very strongly with the point that Bob Doris cites—that human beings are r...
Bob Doris SNP
I thank the member in charge of the bill for that intervention. I am sure that Mr Harvie will realise that I am restricted in what I can say because I am spe...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We now move to the open debate. I will first call Shona Robison, to be followed by Christian Allard. I ask for five-minute speeches throughout the open debat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport (Shona Robison) SNP
As other members have done, I recognise the work of the late Margo MacDonald to ensure that the issues in the bill have been presented to Parliament. I also ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
One of the clearest points to come out of the process is that end-of-life care is not good. I do not say that in any partisan way. It should concentrate all ...
Shona Robison SNP
As I acknowledged, a lot of work is under way to improve palliative and end-of-life care. In a moment, I will say more about the framework that is being deve...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I thank all the people who contacted all the members of the Parliament. I got my good share of post and emails from both sides of the argument. I hope that I...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I speak in support of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill. I welcome and respect that the debate will invoke passion, reason and arguments based on ethics, ...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I say at the outset that I will not support the bill. Five years ago, I voted against Margo MacDonald’s End of Life Assistance (Scotland) Bill, having been a...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I thank all those organisations that sent briefings indicating their concerns about the bill. I especially thank all the many constituents who wrote to me, i...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I add my thanks to those of other members who have already spoken. This is an emotive debate and people will be passionate about the view, either for or agai...
Patrick Harvie Green
The member suggests, as others have, that in passing the bill we would in some way undermine efforts to reduce suicide in the wider population. Is she able t...
Rhoda Grant Lab
If, on the one hand, we see suicide as a bad thing and as something to be prevented but, on the other, single out a proportion of society for whom it is a go...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Shortly after first being elected in 2007, I sat in the chamber listening to a members’ business debate that was led by my former colleague Jeremy Purvis. He...
Dave Thompson (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate and I thank all those within and outwith Parliament who have been and are involved in it. To put my...
Patrick Harvie Green
As I acknowledged in my opening remarks, I accept that such circumstances as Dave Thompson describes take place. The question for us is not whether they shou...
Dave Thompson SNP
I do not accept the premise of that point. The cabinet secretary mentioned that that legal point has not been accepted. As the Health and Sport Committee he...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
Until a few days ago, I was very much undecided about how I would vote come decision time tonight. To be honest, I am still not 100 per cent there yet, altho...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Lab
Presiding Officer, “Legalising assisted suicide is a slippery slope toward widespread killing of the sick”. Those are not my words, nor are they the words ...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con) Con
As a co-sponsor of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill, I have to say that I have wrestled with the content of anything that I might say in its support this...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Thank you for the opportunity to speak, Presiding Officer. It is clear that the subject divides opinion, and I think that most of us can accept that there a...
Patrick Harvie Green
Is the member asserting that that increase has coincided with the introduction or the uptake of legislation on assisted suicide? Having looked at the figures...
John Mason SNP
My general argument is that the issue is very difficult. If we are changing the atmosphere on suicide and moving from a position where suicide is always regr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
John Mason SNP
No, not at this stage. The Finance Committee did not spend much time on the financial memorandum. I wonder whether we should have looked into that angle in ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
As a general point, I ask members to try to keep to their five minutes. We would not want any members not to get the opportunity to speak. 16:09