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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 May 2015

27 May 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I thank the member in charge of the bill for that intervention. I am sure that Mr Harvie will realise that I am restricted in what I can say because I am speaking on behalf of the committee. He has put his point on the record. It is reasonable to say, I think, that the point that the committee is making is that making an independent choice does not necessarily have no consequences for other people in society, be they frail, elderly or terminally ill people. I believe that that is what the committee concluded in relation to that area, but I thank the member for putting his views on the record.

The committee concluded that, if assisted suicide were to be permitted, robust safeguards would be required to protect the rights of others, including some of the very vulnerable people whom I have just mentioned. Safeguards to address public safety considerations would also be necessary. The committee was not persuaded that the principle of respect for autonomy on its own requires assisted suicide to be legalised.

I turn to the concerns about a lack of definitions in the bill. Our committee noted the concerns about the fact that, for example, no definition is given of “euthanasia” or “assisted suicide”. We found that surprising. In addition, the bill does not specify a means of suicide; it seems to be widely assumed, including by representatives of pharmacists’ professional bodies, that the bill envisages the ingestion of a lethal dose of drugs. However, the bill refers to

“any drug or other substance or means”.

That further complicates attempts to establish what the line between assisted suicide and euthanasia might look like in practice. The committee appreciates that, for some people, that gives rise to concern that, because the bill does not define either term, it does not specify precisely which actions it intends to shield from liability. It can be argued that that is further obscured by the lack of clarity in the bill regarding the means of suicide.

The terms “terminal” and “life-shortening” appear in the bill. Those terms are absolutely central in delineating the range of persons who would be eligible to receive assistance in ending their lives if the bill were to pass into law, yet neither of them is defined, and “terminal” entails nothing specific in terms of remaining life expectancy.

In its submission, Doctors for Assisted Suicide said:

“We ... welcome the fact that no time limits are laid down by the Bill. Doctors are often inaccurate in predicting how long someone has to live.”

However, David Stephenson QC of the Faculty of Advocates observed:

“It therefore seems to follow”

from the lack of definition

“that any illness that shortens a person’s expectancy of life is life shortening. The Faculty of Advocates’ submission pointed out that many everyday conditions are likely to be life shortening. For example, type 2 diabetes can shorten life”.—[Official Report, Health and Sport Committee, 13 January 2015; c 26.]

The committee considers that the bill’s failure to define those key terms leaves far too many people potentially eligible to receive assistance.

The bill does not provide for a general clarification of the law on assisted suicide. Assisted suicide that took place outside the scope of the bill would still be dealt with under the common law. The common law, and any uncertainty therein, would remain the fallback position. It is in that context that we must view section 24, which provides protection from liability for those who make incorrect statements or who do anything else that is inconsistent with the legislation as long as they are

“acting in good faith and in intended pursuance of this act”

and have not been “careless”. That is what is commonly called a savings clause. The rationale behind section 24 is the sense that it would be undesirable if people who made minor or technical errors in complying with the procedure that is set out in the bill were at risk of being charged for a common-law crime. The term “careless” is not defined, nor is the phrase

“acting in good faith and in intended pursuance of this Act”.

In this regard, the committee concluded:

“It seems clear that in numerous respects, some of which go to the heart of the Bill’s purpose, the language of the Bill would introduce much uncertainty. In the context of a statute that makes an exception to the law of homicide and permits one person to assist in the death of another, such significant uncertainty must be unacceptable and would require to be addressed should Parliament approve the Bill at Stage 1.”

A number of witnesses raised concerns about the potential for coercion of vulnerable people if the bill were to become law. The committee suggests that, should the Parliament approve the bill today, the member in charge may wish to consider some of the suggestions from witnesses regarding measures aimed at minimising the risk of coercion. However, the committee notes the observation by the British Medical Association that that will in no way guarantee the absence of coercion in the context of assisted suicide.

I will not have time in my speech this afternoon to discuss issues that the committee raised in relation to the conscience clause, although perhaps other members will do so; in relation to the role of the licensed facilitator, which is a very important matter that I am sure other members will talk about; or in relation to various other areas.

In the short time that I have remaining, let me reiterate the final conclusions of the Health and Sport Committee. We recognise

“the strength of feeling expressed by those who have given evidence both in support of and in opposition to the general principles of the Bill ... The Committee believes the bill contains significant flaws. These present major challenges as to whether the Bill can be progressed. Whilst the majority of the Committee does not support the general principles of the Bill, given that the issue of assisted suicide is a matter of conscience, the Committee has chosen to make no formal recommendation to the Parliament on the Bill.”

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-13258, in the name of Patrick Harvie, on stage 1 of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill. I will try to c...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I express my gratitude for the opportunity to bring the bill to the stage that it has reached today. In doing so, I thank the Health and Sport Committee, the...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Bob Doris to speak on behalf of the Health and Sport Committee. Mr Doris, you have around 11 minutes. 14:56
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
My role as deputy convener of the Health and Sport Committee in this afternoon’s debate is to present to the chamber the committee’s findings and its recomme...
Patrick Harvie Green
I did not agree with everything that Dr Hutchison said in evidence, but I did agree very strongly with the point that Bob Doris cites—that human beings are r...
Bob Doris SNP
I thank the member in charge of the bill for that intervention. I am sure that Mr Harvie will realise that I am restricted in what I can say because I am spe...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We now move to the open debate. I will first call Shona Robison, to be followed by Christian Allard. I ask for five-minute speeches throughout the open debat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport (Shona Robison) SNP
As other members have done, I recognise the work of the late Margo MacDonald to ensure that the issues in the bill have been presented to Parliament. I also ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
One of the clearest points to come out of the process is that end-of-life care is not good. I do not say that in any partisan way. It should concentrate all ...
Shona Robison SNP
As I acknowledged, a lot of work is under way to improve palliative and end-of-life care. In a moment, I will say more about the framework that is being deve...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I thank all the people who contacted all the members of the Parliament. I got my good share of post and emails from both sides of the argument. I hope that I...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I speak in support of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill. I welcome and respect that the debate will invoke passion, reason and arguments based on ethics, ...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I say at the outset that I will not support the bill. Five years ago, I voted against Margo MacDonald’s End of Life Assistance (Scotland) Bill, having been a...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I thank all those organisations that sent briefings indicating their concerns about the bill. I especially thank all the many constituents who wrote to me, i...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I add my thanks to those of other members who have already spoken. This is an emotive debate and people will be passionate about the view, either for or agai...
Patrick Harvie Green
The member suggests, as others have, that in passing the bill we would in some way undermine efforts to reduce suicide in the wider population. Is she able t...
Rhoda Grant Lab
If, on the one hand, we see suicide as a bad thing and as something to be prevented but, on the other, single out a proportion of society for whom it is a go...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Shortly after first being elected in 2007, I sat in the chamber listening to a members’ business debate that was led by my former colleague Jeremy Purvis. He...
Dave Thompson (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate and I thank all those within and outwith Parliament who have been and are involved in it. To put my...
Patrick Harvie Green
As I acknowledged in my opening remarks, I accept that such circumstances as Dave Thompson describes take place. The question for us is not whether they shou...
Dave Thompson SNP
I do not accept the premise of that point. The cabinet secretary mentioned that that legal point has not been accepted. As the Health and Sport Committee he...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
Until a few days ago, I was very much undecided about how I would vote come decision time tonight. To be honest, I am still not 100 per cent there yet, altho...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Lab
Presiding Officer, “Legalising assisted suicide is a slippery slope toward widespread killing of the sick”. Those are not my words, nor are they the words ...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con) Con
As a co-sponsor of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill, I have to say that I have wrestled with the content of anything that I might say in its support this...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Thank you for the opportunity to speak, Presiding Officer. It is clear that the subject divides opinion, and I think that most of us can accept that there a...
Patrick Harvie Green
Is the member asserting that that increase has coincided with the introduction or the uptake of legislation on assisted suicide? Having looked at the figures...
John Mason SNP
My general argument is that the issue is very difficult. If we are changing the atmosphere on suicide and moving from a position where suicide is always regr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
John Mason SNP
No, not at this stage. The Finance Committee did not spend much time on the financial memorandum. I wonder whether we should have looked into that angle in ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
As a general point, I ask members to try to keep to their five minutes. We would not want any members not to get the opportunity to speak. 16:09