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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 01 March 2012

01 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Living Wage
Wilson, John SNP Central Scotland Watch on SPTV

I declare an interest. Prior to coming into the Parliament in May 2007, I was the director of the Scottish Low Pay Unit. I also served on the Trades Union Congress national minimum wage enforcement group and was part of the initial Scottish living wage campaign.

I pay tribute to the East London Communities Organisation, which is now part of London Citizens and which, in 2001, started the campaign for the living wage.

I welcome the debate in the name of the Local Government and Regeneration Committee on the living wage in Scotland. In fact, any debate that highlights low pay and its connection with poverty should be of interest to all members and people beyond the Parliament. The consequences of poverty—especially its complexities—still blight many of our communities.

The committee’s report clearly shows the context and scope of the various living wage campaigns, which are somewhat diverse in nature. They have clearly had an impact on the national minimum wage rate, which is set by the Low Pay Commission and is currently £6.08 for workers aged 21 and over. The Scottish living wage is currently calculated at £7.20 per hour.

As I have stated previously in the chamber, 29 organisations in London—including the mayor of London Boris Johnson, the Greater London Assembly and Barclays Bank—have fully embraced the implementation of a living wage. Darren Johnson, a Green Party member in the Greater London Assembly, made a freedom of information request, which was published in March 2009. He found that only four London boroughs out of 32 were incorporating the living wage into their procurement policies. However, with the Olympics approaching, things have moved on and many authorities in London are now adopting the living wage as a formula for calculating contracts.

Although the Scottish Government and other public sector employers, such as many local authorities, have endorsed the living wage, it is not enshrined in statute, unlike the national minimum wage.

The committee spent a considerable period of time in its inquiry on procurement issues. Those are critical to the implementation of the living wage because, if it were to be stipulated in procurement contracts, employers would be contractually obliged to pay their employees at that rate or face action for breach of contract.

That brings us to EU procurement law and, as the committee’s report highlights, possible European restrictions on, and challenges to, stipulating that the living wage be incorporated into all public sector contracts. The relevant law—the public sector, or classic, directive 2004/18/EC—was implemented in Scotland by the Public Contracts (Scotland) Regulations 2006. The key principles behind the directive stipulate that EU member states or “contracting authorities” must award contracts on the basis of commercial, non-discriminatory and objective criteria.

I note that the committee’s report refers to the submission by Mr McGuire—a partner in Thompson Solicitors—that payment of the living wage could be included as a contract performance clause. The report further states that the Scottish Government has written to the European Commission on that, and I await with interest the Commission’s response.

The committee recognised that much more needs to be done, although the living wage is to be welcomed as part of a policy mix for tackling in-work poverty that needs to be flexible but not confused.

Promoting a living wage requires better policy co-ordination. That is highlighted in the recommendation that

“the Committee … calls on the Scottish Government to use its experience, expertise and good relationship with COSLA and with local government generally to seek to encourage the further introduction of the living wage”.

As a society, we have to tackle the problem of poverty—particularly in-work poverty—at source, take every step that is necessary to eradicate that blight on Scotland and urge the UK Government to ameliorate some of its excessive policies when dealing with poverty.

As part of my long-standing contribution to the discussion about having a diverse policy mix, I have stated in the chamber previously that it could be argued that due consideration should be given to the idea of a citizen’s basic income, which would reduce the stigma associated with benefit take-up, for example. Moreover, it could be argued that a living wage may fail to tackle poverty. Under the present system, a living wage and consequent increases in workers’ incomes could lead to a reduction in entitlement to working tax credits, housing benefit and council tax benefit, leaving workers again in a poverty trap.

I welcome today’s debate and its focus on advancing approaches to address poverty, particularly in-work poverty. I look forward not only to a day when all public bodies and authorities adopt the living wage for all employees but to a day when the living wage becomes the standard rate throughout the private sector and when we as a society can eradicate in-work poverty and poverty for all citizens in Scotland. I look forward especially to the debate that will take place in the chamber next Thursday evening on a motion that John Park has lodged, which will allow us to advance further arguments and consider the issues around the private sector’s failure to protect not only the pay of its workforce but its pensions and other benefits.

15:36

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on the living wage in Scotland. I call on Joe FitzPatrick to open the debate on behalf of the Local Government and Rege...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee City West) (SNP) SNP
I start by thanking the committee clerks for their diligent work during the inquiry, which resulted in the important report—“Report on the Living Wage in Sco...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member agree that there was also a lot of scaremongering before the national minimum wage was introduced, which has been shown to be largely false?
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
That is exactly the point that I was going to make. At the time of the introduction of the minimum wage, the CBI stated that “even a low minimum wage would ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I am sure that the member is old enough to recall the CBI making similar comments when we stopped sending children up chimneys to sweep them.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I cannot remember that far back. I defer to the member. In fact, in the five years following the introduction of the minimum wage, the unemployment level in...
Mark McDonald (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
A number of councils have established arm’s-length organisations. Those organisations deliver council services but the staff are not directly employed by the...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
We questioned local authorities that have introduced the living wage, the most notable of which is Glasgow, about that issue. We received confirmation from t...
The Minister for Local Government and Planning (Derek Mackay) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on behalf of the Government. The bad news is that I will also close on behalf of the Government. I am pleased to see that th...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Has the minister just given a commitment to a living wage for all employees in an independent Scotland?
Derek Mackay SNP
I am sure that that could be part of our considerations for an independent Scotland. Access to this country’s full resources would give us many choices about...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Further to Kezia Dugdale’s point, the powers for the national minimum wage may rest with Westminster, but it would be in the gift of the Scottish Government ...
Derek Mackay SNP
Such decision making is a matter for local government discretion. We do not have to create funds to achieve a policy objective, and I announced last week tha...
Gavin Brown Con
The report states that seven local authorities have implemented the living wage. The minister has said that a majority have implemented it, so, for the sake ...
Derek Mackay SNP
Six councils have agreed to implement the living wage for the financial year 2012-13: Clackmannanshire, Falkirk, Moray, North Lanarkshire, Perth and Kinross,...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I, too, welcome the debate. I read the committee’s report with interest and would like to congratulate the committee, the clerks and all those who gave evide...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I remind Ms Boyack that, when the Labour Party was in government in the UK, it had control over the national minimum wage but that, despite the campaign to i...
Sarah Boyack Lab
The Labour Government increased the national minimum wage repeatedly to ensure that it kept up. The fact that we are discussing the living wage now is testam...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
You should close now, please.
Sarah Boyack Lab
That is why we would support the implementation of the living wage. I hope that the Scottish Government will listen to us today, as we need that political wi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Margaret Mitchell. You have six minutes. 15:23
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The committee took evidence from a variety of witnesses, whom I thank for their valuable contribution to the inquiry. I pay tribute to the committee clerks f...
Kezia Dugdale Lab
I was at the committee when the member argued that that money would be better spent on potholes. Does she regret her comments on the living wage somehow repr...
Margaret Mitchell Con
I regret anything that takes away from service provision. The raison d’être for any local authority is service provision, and that must come first. The hars...
John Mason SNP
Will the member give way?
Margaret Mitchell Con
I am sorry, but I have only six minutes, and I have a particular view to put over. It is more worrying that, in its written submission, CBI Scotland stated ...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Margaret Mitchell Con
I have already explained that I have only six minutes. I am sorry that I cannot take an intervention; normally, I would do so. In essence, the Scottish Cham...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I declare an interest. Prior to coming into the Parliament in May 2007, I was the director of the Scottish Low Pay Unit. I also served on the Trades Union Co...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the committee report and the general level of debate that we have had so far. I am pleased that, under our new arrangements, we will look at the is...