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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 01 March 2012

01 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Living Wage

I start by thanking the committee clerks for their diligent work during the inquiry, which resulted in the important report—“Report on the Living Wage in Scotland”—that we are discussing today. I also recognise the input of Kezia Dugdale and Mark Griffin, who are no longer members of the committee but were involved in the early stages of the inquiry.

Our short-term inquiry into the living wage was held in December and January and we published our report on 3 February. We worked hard as a committee to achieve consensus, and I hope that our report helps to move the agenda forward in an informed way.

Usually, we would wait until we had received the Government’s response before we brought a debate on a committee report to the chamber, but we hope that today’s debate will feed into the Government’s response, as part of the Presiding Officer’s programme for change. Although we look forward to hearing what the minister has to say, we understand that that will not be the Government’s final response.

The aim of our inquiry was to consider the benefits of a living wage for individuals, families and communities. We looked at the introduction of the living wage by local authorities and explored the extent to which procurement can include criteria that are linked to payment of the living wage.

The living wage is intended to address in-work poverty by providing an income level that enables households to adequately provide for themselves. It is set at £7.20 per hour, which is £1.12 above the United Kingdom’s national minimum wage of £6.08 per hour for adults. The figure of £7.20 per hour, which equates to about £14,000 a year, is not an arbitrary figure that was plucked out of thin air. The committee received evidence from Donald Hirsch of the centre for research in social policy at Loughborough University, who explained that the living wage is based on a calculation of the minimum income standard for the United Kingdom.

The minimum income standard is an estimate of the minimum income that households need in order to have a minimum acceptable standard of living as defined by members of the public. It is based on regular research on what the public think, and it is supported by expert knowledge. It is important to note that the standard covers needs and not wants. It is largely made up of necessities such as food and shelter, and not luxuries. However, it is also about people having what they need in order to have the opportunities and choices that are necessary to participate in society. Good examples are swimming lessons and birthday presents for children. Technically, they are not essential, but they are included in the calculation as the public consider them necessary for the normal upbringing of a child, and it could be argued that their absence is detrimental to a child’s development.

Some 550,000 adult employees in Scotland are paid less than the living wage. That is a lot of people who would benefit if the living wage was adopted. Although our inquiry focused on local government, it revealed that a higher percentage of employees in the private sector earn less than £7.20 per hour—the figure is 28.1 per cent—compared with employees in the public sector, where the figure is 3.9 per cent. We also identified a disparity between men and women, with 22.6 per cent of women earning less than £7.20 per hour compared with 14.6 per cent of men.

The committee heard that those 550,000 Scots largely work in sales and customer service positions or as labourers, cleaners or catering assistants. The Scottish Government has been at the forefront of implementing the living wage, and all Government staff, agency staff and national health service staff already receive it. About 15,000 private sector workers have already benefited from the adoption of the living wage, but that leaves about 18,000 directly employed staff in local government who earn less than £7.20 per hour.

We heard that a number of local authorities are actively considering joining, or have recently made the decision to join, the seven councils that are already paying a living wage. I was pleased to learn that Dundee’s Scottish National Party administration has asked officers to examine its implementation in Dundee City Council.

As part of our inquiry, the committee also took evidence from the private sector, which, as I have said, employs the majority of those who are paid less than the living wage. It is fair to say that the witnesses were largely apprehensive about the living wage and raised concerns over its impact on jobs and over businesses becoming less competitive. The Confederation of British Industry Scotland went considerably further, claiming that the living wage would have a longer-term impact on local labour markets and on the affordability of service provision, and that it would have a disproportionately negative effect on young people. The committee was keen to hear the evidence base for that, but CBI Scotland did not accept the invitation to appear before the committee to answer questions on its written submission.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on the living wage in Scotland. I call on Joe FitzPatrick to open the debate on behalf of the Local Government and Rege...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee City West) (SNP) SNP
I start by thanking the committee clerks for their diligent work during the inquiry, which resulted in the important report—“Report on the Living Wage in Sco...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member agree that there was also a lot of scaremongering before the national minimum wage was introduced, which has been shown to be largely false?
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
That is exactly the point that I was going to make. At the time of the introduction of the minimum wage, the CBI stated that “even a low minimum wage would ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I am sure that the member is old enough to recall the CBI making similar comments when we stopped sending children up chimneys to sweep them.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I cannot remember that far back. I defer to the member. In fact, in the five years following the introduction of the minimum wage, the unemployment level in...
Mark McDonald (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
A number of councils have established arm’s-length organisations. Those organisations deliver council services but the staff are not directly employed by the...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
We questioned local authorities that have introduced the living wage, the most notable of which is Glasgow, about that issue. We received confirmation from t...
The Minister for Local Government and Planning (Derek Mackay) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on behalf of the Government. The bad news is that I will also close on behalf of the Government. I am pleased to see that th...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Has the minister just given a commitment to a living wage for all employees in an independent Scotland?
Derek Mackay SNP
I am sure that that could be part of our considerations for an independent Scotland. Access to this country’s full resources would give us many choices about...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Further to Kezia Dugdale’s point, the powers for the national minimum wage may rest with Westminster, but it would be in the gift of the Scottish Government ...
Derek Mackay SNP
Such decision making is a matter for local government discretion. We do not have to create funds to achieve a policy objective, and I announced last week tha...
Gavin Brown Con
The report states that seven local authorities have implemented the living wage. The minister has said that a majority have implemented it, so, for the sake ...
Derek Mackay SNP
Six councils have agreed to implement the living wage for the financial year 2012-13: Clackmannanshire, Falkirk, Moray, North Lanarkshire, Perth and Kinross,...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I, too, welcome the debate. I read the committee’s report with interest and would like to congratulate the committee, the clerks and all those who gave evide...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I remind Ms Boyack that, when the Labour Party was in government in the UK, it had control over the national minimum wage but that, despite the campaign to i...
Sarah Boyack Lab
The Labour Government increased the national minimum wage repeatedly to ensure that it kept up. The fact that we are discussing the living wage now is testam...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
You should close now, please.
Sarah Boyack Lab
That is why we would support the implementation of the living wage. I hope that the Scottish Government will listen to us today, as we need that political wi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Margaret Mitchell. You have six minutes. 15:23
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The committee took evidence from a variety of witnesses, whom I thank for their valuable contribution to the inquiry. I pay tribute to the committee clerks f...
Kezia Dugdale Lab
I was at the committee when the member argued that that money would be better spent on potholes. Does she regret her comments on the living wage somehow repr...
Margaret Mitchell Con
I regret anything that takes away from service provision. The raison d’être for any local authority is service provision, and that must come first. The hars...
John Mason SNP
Will the member give way?
Margaret Mitchell Con
I am sorry, but I have only six minutes, and I have a particular view to put over. It is more worrying that, in its written submission, CBI Scotland stated ...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Margaret Mitchell Con
I have already explained that I have only six minutes. I am sorry that I cannot take an intervention; normally, I would do so. In essence, the Scottish Cham...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I declare an interest. Prior to coming into the Parliament in May 2007, I was the director of the Scottish Low Pay Unit. I also served on the Trades Union Co...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the committee report and the general level of debate that we have had so far. I am pleased that, under our new arrangements, we will look at the is...