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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 June 2015

10 Jun 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Health
Marra, Jenny Lab North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I would like to make a little more progress, but I will do so later.

Those are significant and considered interventions from experts who do not use such strong language lightly. When they do, it demands the attention of us all.

I was, therefore, heartened to read the cabinet secretary’s response in The Herald on Monday. She welcomed the report from the royal colleges and said that she would listen to their concerns, as the First Minister did last Thursday. In her “Agenda” article, the cabinet secretary said that she wants

“to look beyond short-term demands and foster a consensus around how we best manage our NHS to ensure it meets the considerable challenges of the future.”

Indeed, her amendment talks of fostering

“a mature debate, involving the public, health and care professionals and MSPs from all political parties”,

and states that

“this consensual approach to future changes to Scotland’s beloved NHS will help ensure that it evolves to meet the future needs of the people of Scotland.”

The cabinet secretary is right if she believes that she cannot do that without working with the public, the professionals and other political parties. I make it clear to the Government that we stand ready to have that debate and to work together to improve our NHS for everyone. Before I set out some ideas about how we can take forward that debate, I will touch on the issue of targets, which the cabinet secretary raised this week.

On Monday, the cabinet secretary said that it is important that we rethink targets and make sure that we have the right targets. Many people must have thought that the cabinet secretary had a crystal ball because, on Tuesday, the Government missed its target for accident and emergency waiting times of 98 per cent of all patients being seen within four hours. That is the 295th week in a row that that target has been missed. The 98 per cent target has been revised down by the Government to an interim target of 95 per cent, but this week the achieved figure was just 92.6 per cent. If we are still so far off the interim target in the middle of June, that suggests that we have a serious problem. In the new south Glasgow university hospital, the figure was as low as 83.2 per cent.

On Tuesday, one of the success stories was NHS Tayside, which met the A and E waiting time target in 99.1 per cent of cases. However, a question mark now hangs over that number in the light of the allegations that have been made by a whistleblower who has claimed that the figures are being manipulated and that patients’ safety is possibly being compromised. I expect the cabinet secretary to establish an immediate investigation into those claims in order to restore confidence. The cabinet secretary’s response this morning—that she has been assured by the health board in Tayside—is simply not good enough. Whistleblowers need to be confident that the Government will take them seriously, and it is in patients’ and the public’s interests that the claims be fully investigated, no matter what outcome is expected.

We believe that there is a place for targets in driving up standards and maintaining accountability for performance in our health service. However, when boards do not have the adequate resources, we cannot allow targets to drive perverse behaviours. I would support the cabinet secretary looking at revising the targets so that they are smarter and more sophisticated and drive the right behaviour. That should be part of our debate on the future of the NHS.

We should never lose sight of why we have targets in the first place. Early diagnosis and treatment can lead to improved results, and people should not expect to wait longer and longer when a health service should be improving. Therefore, looking at targets can be part of that genuine public debate.

I will now set out some ideas about how we can have that debate to ensure that it delivers the results that we all want it to deliver. I look forward to the cabinet secretary doing the same in her speech.

A summit should be held with all stakeholders, including the professional bodies and trade unions that spoke out last week, certainly the patient groups whose experiences are central to this and, of course, the political leaders from across the Parliament, in the interests of democracy and accountability. The consensus that exists among those groups on an NHS that is publicly run and free at the point of need can be built on to agree how to transform our NHS and to deliver our shared ambition of a healthier Scotland. Of course, there is one stakeholder who, above all others, we must involve in the process—the Scottish public. In doing so, I hope that we can learn lessons from the recent past on how we allow people to shape the debate.

In many ways, politics has undergone something of a resurgence in this country, with the referendum reviving the tradition of town hall meetings and bringing to life street politics and unprecedented levels of discussion on social media. Thousands of people stepped up to have their say in the referendum, because they knew that they had a stake in the decision and in the outcome. What other issue could provoke such universal feeling in our country than the future of the national health service? We can take this debate to every town in Scotland, as we set out the choices that must be taken and then listen to the views of patients and the public on those choices.

The BMA report says that the public need to be involved in what are considered to be the difficult decisions about future investment in Scotland’s NHS. Unless people are empowered to do that and apprised of the options and the consequences of decisions, we cannot expect to take them with us on any journey of change, and our efforts to bring about change will not be successful.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-13416, in the name of Jenny Marra, on health. I invite members who wish to contribute to the debate to pr...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I and other Labour members have approached today’s debate in a conciliatory way, hoping to reach a consensus on the way in which we take forward the debate o...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Jenny Marra Lab
I would like to make a little more progress, but I will do so later. Those are significant and considered interventions from experts who do not use such str...
John Mason SNP
Does the member agree that one of the decisions that must be made and in which the public certainly must be involved is whether we put more resource into pre...
Jenny Marra Lab
There is a great consensus in all the reports that we have seen about the shift to preventative spend. We will approach the public debate with a programme of...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport (Shona Robison) SNP
I welcome Jenny Marra’s consensual tone. My amendment seeks to build on that tone, and I hope that it will be received in that spirit. Presiding Officer, I ...
Jenny Marra Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for her considered response, and I welcome the fact that the chief medical officer is visiting Ninewells on Monday. However, do...
Shona Robison SNP
Of course. Indeed, that is why we have set up the whistleblowing helpline. However, that does not mean that the concern that is raised is always correct or t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can give you two minutes back.
Shona Robison SNP
We face a number of challenges to our health and social care system including poor patterns of health, health inequalities, rapidly changing demography, high...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Will you draw to a close now, please, cabinet secretary?
Shona Robison SNP
Yes. That level of open engagement will seek consensus on a reform plan for health and social care by 2016, with further engagement beyond then on into impl...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
We very much welcome this debate. Like everyone here, Scottish Conservatives greatly value the work and dedication of the staff in NHS Scotland and Scotland’...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We turn to the open debate. I ask for speeches of six minutes, please. There is not a lot of time in hand. 15:16
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
I start by referring to targets in the NHS, which was a theme in the opening speeches. The briefing that the royal colleges prepared for the debate specifica...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Mr Doris, you really must close.
Bob Doris SNP
That is a hobby horse of mine. I hope that the cabinet secretary has listened to my sales pitch for the care sector. 15:23
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
The challenge of matching NHS resources to demand for healthcare is tough everywhere, and nowhere more so than in NHS Grampian. I know the service well, not ...
John Mason SNP
I take the member’s point about population being important. Does he agree that need and deprivation are also important?
Lewis Macdonald Lab
Absolutely, and that is exactly what the NRAC formula is intended to reflect—population growth, need and deprivation and urban and rural populations. The Gov...
Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) (SNP) SNP
I welcomed the text of Jenny Marra’s motion when I read it after it was published last night, and I welcome the generally consensual and positive speech that...
Jim Hume (South Scotland) (LD) LD
I welcome this debate on health. At a time when we often take a narrow focus and address only separate elements of the NHS, I believe—as the Royal College of...
The Minister for Sport, Health Improvement and Mental Health (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
Mr Hume has raised the issue of mental health valiantly on many occasions, and more power to his elbow in doing so, but I reiterate the point that parity bet...
Jim Hume LD
I have replied that it does not repeat what has been done elsewhere to state the need for parity between physical health and mental health. I am happy to for...
Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) SNP
Just yesterday, directors of finance from some of our NHS boards gave evidence to the Heath and Sport Committee, and at one point I started to feel very sorr...
Jim Hume LD
Dennis Robertson said that I am not listening, but although the Mental Health (Scotland) Bill states that there should be improvements in mental health, it d...
Dennis Robertson SNP
That proves my point to some extent, because we have interpretation. The issue will be about our coming together to try to make improvements. Our nurses—perh...
Jenny Marra Lab
Dennis Robertson referred to my remarks on the timescale of the public conversation that the RCN has called for. He is saying that we are looking for solutio...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
And your point is?