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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 03 June 2015

03 Jun 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Universities

Although short, this has been a two-pronged debate: there has been some debate on the success of our universities and their funding, but it has mostly been about governance and the need for reform.

Across the chamber, we have all celebrated the success of our university sector, but I have to say that there has been a degree of complacency about that from some of the SNP speakers and perhaps from the cabinet secretary herself.

For example, a number of speakers, including me, have referred to the fact that we have four universities in the top 200 in the world. However, we should remind ourselves that, a short 18 months or so ago, we had five universities in the top 200, so we have to be a little careful about the direction in which we are going.

Mr Adam spent some time saying that the Scottish Government had maintained funding in the higher education sector, whereas funding had not been maintained in England; in fact, I think that he said it three times. However, if he had listened to me earlier, he would have heard me quote figures from Lucy Hunter Blackburn, the former head of higher education in the Scottish Government, which show that that is not in fact the case. In this year’s budget, the resources that are available to universities have been cut by 2.5 per cent, with £21 million clawed back after the budget was set and a further £14 million transferred to the Student Awards Agency. We could say that there has been a little bit of unusual accounting.

Mr Maxwell focused rather a lot on what a wonderful world it is for students in Scotland. That, too, rather stepped over the daily reality that students face.

I do not agree with Liz Smith that free tuition has created a funding gap between Scottish and English universities. I think that the helpful NUS briefing gives some detail—too much to go into in the short time that I have—which shows that the funding gap is rather illusory.

Mr Maxwell also said that the current set-up means that Scotland is the best place in Britain to be a student. However, as Mr Baker pointed out, that is certainly not the case for a student from a poorer family, because the level of bursary and grant support available to them will be significantly less and therefore, in order to live, their level of indebtedness will be significantly higher. Perhaps that is why we have a lower proportion of poorer students in our universities and—as Mr Baker pointed out—a higher drop-out rate.

As for governance, Liz Smith has asked on a number of occasions for evidence of failure. However, in her own speech, she indicated the most egregious evidence of failure, which is the lack of transparency in and the very high levels of principals’ pay. Even in the past year, principals’ pay has risen by between 7 and 13 per cent, at a time when most public sector workers are lucky to have a pay rise of 1 per cent.

The UCU—Liz Smith referred to this—has pointed out that even though universities claim to be transparent now, when it asked for details of remuneration committee minutes, two thirds of institutions failed to provide it with that information. That is a failure—it is a failure of governance—and there is no reason at all why we should not consider introducing transparency and consistency.

If Liz Smith talks to those who take part in the current governance structure, such as staff reps, she will find that they do not believe that the governance system is working.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-13313, in the name of Liz Smith, on Scotland’s universities. We are extraordinarily tight for time today....
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It does not really matter which academic, economic or social measurement is chosen—Scottish universities are held in high esteem throughout the world. That i...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Angela Constance) SNP
I am pleased that the Conservatives have chosen to discuss higher education, because that gives me the opportunity to celebrate Scotland’s universities and t...
Liz Smith Con
I absolutely agree with those statistics, but what are the grounds on which universities have achieved such outstanding success?
Angela Constance SNP
The £1 billion annual funding to which this Government is committed has made some contribution. Of course, many others should be congratulated, not least of ...
Liz Smith Con
Why does the cabinet secretary think that Professor Downes said that the Scottish Government should “reflect seriously on the wide range of evidence that sa...
Angela Constance SNP
We are indeed considering the wide range of evidence that is available in Scotland and across the developed world. In addition, as an open and transparent Go...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
You are in your final 30 seconds.
Angela Constance SNP
I want to briefly share a couple of facts on what universities and the Government have achieved by working together. We know that the number of Scotland-domi...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
The amendment in my name seeks to leave intact the first half or so of the Conservative motion, for the simple reason that there can be no disagreement with ...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I agree that our university sector makes an outstanding contribution to Scotland academically, socially and culturally. That is why the Scottish Government i...
James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the fact that the Conservatives are using their time to look at the key issue of how we organise our universities. The issues in the debate concern...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member accept that what we are taking is not a free-market approach but a fundamentally liberal approach? Such an approach is completely missing aro...
James Kelly Lab
I was going to say that, whereas legislation should not be used for legislation’s sake, as Mr Gray and others pointed out, huge amounts of public money are i...
Liz Smith Con
On what grounds is the member arguing that there is a serious problem in higher education? Where is the evidence that we are failing because governance is no...
James Kelly Lab
Let me go on to my next point. There are more fundamental issues than simply governance that we have to address in the university sector. However, governan...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I very much welcome the opportunity to speak in this afternoon’s debate on the important contribution that our universities make to Scotland. Liz Smith is ri...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, let me declare an interest: my alma mater is the University of Strathclyde, of which I am an honorary fellow. Not surprisingly, I hold my ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful to Annabel Goldie for describing how things can be done very well. The point in any sensible society is that we want to ensure that things are ...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased that Parliament has this opportunity to debate the challenges that face our universities. In Aberdeen, the issue of support for our university s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Could you draw to a close, please?
Richard Baker Lab
That is not an argument against reform; it is an argument against an overbearing approach from central Government. There should be accountability to staff an...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that I have to advise members that there is absolutely no time. Please stick to your time. 15:30
Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) SNP
My constituency has two universities within its boundaries: Edinburgh Napier University and Heriot-Watt University. I take great interest in both institution...
Iain Gray Lab
Although short, this has been a two-pronged debate: there has been some debate on the success of our universities and their funding, but it has mostly been a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that you must close now, please.
Iain Gray Lab
They are not trade union reps but they are often treated as such. As I said in my opening speech, yes, there should be autonomy, but it should be responsibl...
Angela Constance SNP
I say to Mr Gray that, although I have many faults—I am sure that he is familiar with a few of them—complacency is most certainly not one of them. As I refl...
Iain Gray Lab
Will the minister address the point about the transfers to the SAAS?
Angela Constance SNP
Of course there has been a transfer of resources, but that has no impact on the level of support available to students. SAAS funding for student support is d...