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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 May 2015

27 May 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Until a few days ago, I was very much undecided about how I would vote come decision time tonight. To be honest, I am still not 100 per cent there yet, although Patrick Harvie’s response to the stage 1 report and his remarks today have gone some way towards persuading me that we ought to allow the bill to move to stage 2 so that the amending that it undoubtedly requires can take place.

Like many people, I am instinctively inclined towards the principle of individuals having the right to decide whether to end their life when confronted by an intolerable end to that life, and that conviction was only strengthened by the loss of my father some six months ago. Watching a loved one die, albeit not in quite the circumstances covered by the bill, inevitably has a bearing on one’s views on such matters. I recall at various times over those awful three days telling myself that I would absolutely support the bill when the opportunity arose, and yet I find myself torn, because the bill as drafted contains, as we have heard, a number of serious flaws.

I do not intend to rehearse each area of concern, especially as colleagues across the chamber have already highlighted some of them and others are seeking the opportunity to contribute to the debate. Instead, I want to focus on what is, for me, a critical issue—respecting the views of health professionals who, for perfectly understandable reasons, would not wish to involve themselves in any way in the assisted suicide process.

Last year, the Parliament found a means of reconciling conflicting opinions on equal marriage, by framing the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Act 2014 in such a way as to ensure that faith groups or individual celebrants who, because of their genuine, deeply held convictions, did not want to be involved in the process could not be compelled to carry out marriages. We were right to do that.

In the case of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill, we are told that a majority of doctors and many pharmacists and psychiatrists are opposed. On all sides of the argument, there appears to be a recognition that some kind of opt-out would be appropriate. Even the my life, my death, my choice campaign, which supports the legislation, has admitted:

“It is important that no doctor should be forced to take part.”

Of course, we do not have the option of making statutory provision in this area, and seeking to deliver protection for individual practitioners’ rights of conscience through professional guidance would not provide a cast-iron protection. In principle, it might be possible under section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998 for a United Kingdom minister to deliver a conscience clause, and I therefore welcome Patrick Harvie’s commitment to explore that option if the bill’s general principles are agreed to later today, because for me it is essential that medical practitioners should not be forced to participate in a process that runs contrary to their beliefs.

However, having said all that, if we were able to respect the views and rights of medical practitioners, where would that leave us in protecting individuals from coercion or influence in coming to a decision? I was struck by the comments of Professor David Jones when he pointed out in evidence to the Health and Sport Committee that people are vulnerable not only to coercion but to influence, which could include their own subjective sense of becoming a burden.

As both the Health and Sport Committee and Mr Harvie have acknowledged, the risk of coercion can only ever be minimised—it can never be eliminated completely—but in seeking to respect the rights of medical practitioners might we be reducing protection against coercion or influence compared with what might result from introducing a bill without a conscience clause? I think that there is a dilemma there. It has been suggested that perhaps only a small number of doctors would be willing to play a part in delivering the aims of the bill. If that is the case, where is the local knowledge of patients and their circumstances that might identify where a vulnerable individual is being leaned on or is being influenced by their own concerns about becoming a burden on family? The days of each of us having our own GP within a practice have all but gone; even if those days were still with us, there would be no way of removing entirely the possibility of coercion or influence being at work. If people found themselves having to trawl around for a GP who would be willing to participate, the possibility of coercion or influence not being picked up on would increase.

I therefore welcome Patrick Harvie’s indication that he would be willing to discuss possible amendments in the area of coercion, although I accept that it is a difficult issue to address when we must surely accept in the first instance that, above all else, we have to provide medical practitioners with a conscience clause.

As I indicated at the beginning of my speech, I have been quite conflicted in my views on the bill. I do not believe that, as drafted, it is a particularly good piece of legislation. I am one of those whom Patrick Harvie described as not being convinced of the detail of the bill. However, I am now inclined to support the principles at decision time, in the hope that the parliamentary process can thereafter make it fit for purpose, and without in any way committing to supporting it at stage 3.

15:54  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-13258, in the name of Patrick Harvie, on stage 1 of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill. I will try to c...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I express my gratitude for the opportunity to bring the bill to the stage that it has reached today. In doing so, I thank the Health and Sport Committee, the...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Bob Doris to speak on behalf of the Health and Sport Committee. Mr Doris, you have around 11 minutes. 14:56
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
My role as deputy convener of the Health and Sport Committee in this afternoon’s debate is to present to the chamber the committee’s findings and its recomme...
Patrick Harvie Green
I did not agree with everything that Dr Hutchison said in evidence, but I did agree very strongly with the point that Bob Doris cites—that human beings are r...
Bob Doris SNP
I thank the member in charge of the bill for that intervention. I am sure that Mr Harvie will realise that I am restricted in what I can say because I am spe...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We now move to the open debate. I will first call Shona Robison, to be followed by Christian Allard. I ask for five-minute speeches throughout the open debat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport (Shona Robison) SNP
As other members have done, I recognise the work of the late Margo MacDonald to ensure that the issues in the bill have been presented to Parliament. I also ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
One of the clearest points to come out of the process is that end-of-life care is not good. I do not say that in any partisan way. It should concentrate all ...
Shona Robison SNP
As I acknowledged, a lot of work is under way to improve palliative and end-of-life care. In a moment, I will say more about the framework that is being deve...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I thank all the people who contacted all the members of the Parliament. I got my good share of post and emails from both sides of the argument. I hope that I...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I speak in support of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill. I welcome and respect that the debate will invoke passion, reason and arguments based on ethics, ...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I say at the outset that I will not support the bill. Five years ago, I voted against Margo MacDonald’s End of Life Assistance (Scotland) Bill, having been a...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I thank all those organisations that sent briefings indicating their concerns about the bill. I especially thank all the many constituents who wrote to me, i...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I add my thanks to those of other members who have already spoken. This is an emotive debate and people will be passionate about the view, either for or agai...
Patrick Harvie Green
The member suggests, as others have, that in passing the bill we would in some way undermine efforts to reduce suicide in the wider population. Is she able t...
Rhoda Grant Lab
If, on the one hand, we see suicide as a bad thing and as something to be prevented but, on the other, single out a proportion of society for whom it is a go...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Shortly after first being elected in 2007, I sat in the chamber listening to a members’ business debate that was led by my former colleague Jeremy Purvis. He...
Dave Thompson (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate and I thank all those within and outwith Parliament who have been and are involved in it. To put my...
Patrick Harvie Green
As I acknowledged in my opening remarks, I accept that such circumstances as Dave Thompson describes take place. The question for us is not whether they shou...
Dave Thompson SNP
I do not accept the premise of that point. The cabinet secretary mentioned that that legal point has not been accepted. As the Health and Sport Committee he...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
Until a few days ago, I was very much undecided about how I would vote come decision time tonight. To be honest, I am still not 100 per cent there yet, altho...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Lab
Presiding Officer, “Legalising assisted suicide is a slippery slope toward widespread killing of the sick”. Those are not my words, nor are they the words ...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con) Con
As a co-sponsor of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill, I have to say that I have wrestled with the content of anything that I might say in its support this...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Thank you for the opportunity to speak, Presiding Officer. It is clear that the subject divides opinion, and I think that most of us can accept that there a...
Patrick Harvie Green
Is the member asserting that that increase has coincided with the introduction or the uptake of legislation on assisted suicide? Having looked at the figures...
John Mason SNP
My general argument is that the issue is very difficult. If we are changing the atmosphere on suicide and moving from a position where suicide is always regr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
John Mason SNP
No, not at this stage. The Finance Committee did not spend much time on the financial memorandum. I wonder whether we should have looked into that angle in ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
As a general point, I ask members to try to keep to their five minutes. We would not want any members not to get the opportunity to speak. 16:09