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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 03 February 2015

03 Feb 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Empowerment (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Lyndon Johnson said:

“You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.”

For me, that is a good starting point on the bill. I welcome the fact that the minister has said today, and the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Communities and Pensioners’ Rights has said previously, that they want to have more discussions and are willing to consider addressing some of the issues in the bill at stage 2. The Labour Party certainly supports the principle of the bill, but we see a need for greater clarity, and there are still far too many unanswered questions; I hope to go through a few of them. I will highlight one. On participation requests, I say that if there is no right to appeal—there is uncertainty on that, in some senses—what is the point?

The bill needs teeth and more strength. Marco Biagi said that “inequalities are reduced” when we empower communities, and I do not disagree with that, but I am not sure that the bill will do that, particularly if we are aiming at the least empowered communities. A real worry about that comes through in the evidence to the committee. Therefore, the bill needs more strength and more teeth if we are serious about community empowerment. I am not sure that it actually goes there.

There is a great need for improvement in the bill, which is why I commend Kevin Stewart and the Local Government and Regeneration Committee for the exhaustive work that they have carried out. They have produced a report that contains a range of detailed recommendations. That demonstrates not only that the committee has been active in taking evidence but that it has listened to that evidence. I am sure that the committee’s recommendations will form the basis of discussions with the Government, as we move forward.

I draw attention to the Finance Committee’s report. We cannot go past today without highlighting that, although that committee

“acknowledges the difficulties faced in quantifying potential future costs arising from services that will be demand driven”,

it

“remains concerned that, despite the requirements of Standing Orders, best estimates have not been fully provided.”

A number of local authorities gave evidence to the Finance Committee and the Local Government and Regeneration Committee, and highlighted many concerns. For instance, East Lothian Council said:

“Local government will incur extra cost as a result of these provisions (which constitute a new legislative burden) and it is not possible to allocate money to these”.

There were submissions from Inverclyde Council, Glasgow City Council, North Ayrshire Council and North Lanarkshire Council, all of which raised legitimate concerns. The bill team confirmed that

“That would be part of the normal discussions with local authorities through the annual budgeting process”

and that

“Local authorities would have to demonstrate and quantify what was involved and then go into discussions with the Scottish Government.”—[Official Report, Finance Committee, 8 October 2014; c 55.]

As we know, local authorities the length and breadth of Scotland—regardless of their political colour—are currently cutting front-line services.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12220, in the name of Marco Biagi, on the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Bill. Mr Biagi, you have 14 mi...
The Minister for Local Government and Community Empowerment (Marco Biagi) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer—and I begin this stage 1 debate by thanking a lot of other people, too. Although “stage 1” suggests that we are at the first sta...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
On allotments, I think that all members have received a piece of lobbying from the Scottish Allotments and Gardens Society. For whatever reason, the society ...
Marco Biagi SNP
On Friday, I spoke to Ian Welsh of the Scottish Allotments and Gardens Society. I committed to consulting on the use of one of the powers that the bill will ...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab) Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Marco Biagi SNP
I am afraid that I am in my final minute. On Saturday, I will visit a charrette hosted by the Glasgow canal regeneration partnership, where the community wi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
At this stage of the debate, we have a little time in hand if members wish to take interventions. I call Kevin Stewart to speak on behalf of the Local Gover...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this debate on behalf of my colleagues in the Local Government and Regeneration Committee. I thank the current and past members of t...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
On compelling organisations to do things, Kevin Stewart will be aware that the Scottish Woodlot Association has expressed concerns about the Forestry Act 196...
Kevin Stewart SNP
Andy Brown of the Scottish Woodlot Association was in touch with the committee on Sunday and yesterday. He is pleased that we have recommended that Forestry ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that I must ask you to come to a close.
Kevin Stewart SNP
Part 7 relates to allotments. We have already heard a little about that from members. We have made recommendations on that, too. Part 8 deals with non-dome...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab
Lyndon Johnson said: “You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it...
Kevin Stewart SNP
Will Alex Rowley give way?
Alex Rowley Lab
I will not, at this stage. I raise that point not to highlight concerns about local government finance, but to argue that if the moneys are not available, t...
Kevin Stewart SNP
The committee was divided on that point, but it would be fair to say that there are some concerns. The Scottish Community Alliance director, Angus Hardie, s...
Alex Rowley Lab
I have said that the Scottish Labour Party absolutely supports the principle of community empowerment. However, there are serious questions around finance th...
Anne McTaggart (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Alex Rowley referred in his opening comments to poor legislation and the challenges in the bill. Does he agree with the latest statement from the Scottish Al...
Alex Rowley Lab
I should probably declare an interest as a very keen allotment grower. There needs to be further discussion with the Scottish Allotments and Gardens Society,...
Marco Biagi SNP
On the point about discussion with the Scottish Allotments and Gardens Society, I have been out and visited an allotment, and met the society to discuss the ...
Alex Rowley Lab
I agree with the minister that the five points that the society makes will form the basis of a discussion. The letter that the society has submitted highlig...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You need to draw to a close, please.
Alex Rowley Lab
I will draw to a close. We must reconsider the right to request to participate, because we cannot have it without a proper appeals system. Scottish Labour ...
Cameron Buchanan (Lothian) (Con) Con
The bill contains some provisions with which I agree and some with which I do not. I welcome the principle of community empowerment, but I am not sure that t...
Alex Rowley Lab
Does Cameron Buchanan agree that it is therefore crucial that we have some kind of financial estimates of the costs that could be incurred, if we are serious...
Cameron Buchanan Con
It is essential that we have estimates of costs, or the bill cannot proceed. We have not had those estimates. It is important that, in the provisions on all...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We come to the open debate. Speeches should be of six minutes, please. 15:03
Rob Gibson (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) SNP
The Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee considered part 4 of the bill and reported our views to the Local Government and Regeneration Com...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
There is strong support across the chamber for extending land reform to urban communities. Part of the process has to be about learning from the lessons of t...
Michael Russell (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) SNP
The bill is very welcome. It is useful to state at the outset, as minister did, that this is about mindsets more than minutiae. We cannot empower communities...