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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 22 April 2015

22 Apr 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Members’ Interests Bill
Paterson, Gil SNP Clydebank and Milngavie Watch on SPTV

Before I start, Presiding Officer, I wonder whether you will indulge me, since this is my first opportunity to speak. I want to record a personal message of sympathy for the family of my friend Tom McCabe. He was a good friend and a good colleague.

I want to say something similar to what Cameron Buchanan said. At present, when a complaint comes in in respect of a member’s interests, the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland conducts an in-depth investigation, and if a breach is found there is an automatic referral to the procurator fiscal. I have raised that issue in committee since the first session of Parliament, but this is the first time that I have brought it to the chamber. I am conscious that no matter how trivial the matter is, there is no discretion at the hand of the commissioner. As has been pointed out, since Parliament started in 1999, there has been almost no comment on matters that have been referred to the fiscal. In a political sense, that is a problem for members, because some people think that when someone is referred to the fiscal there is no smoke without fire. That is something that we should look at.

Just a few weeks ago, such a minor breach was brought to and dealt with by the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee. That minor breach was investigated thoroughly by the commissioner, and because it was agreed to be a breach it was passed to the fiscal’s office, although no action was taken. Yet again, the fiscal’s time was wasted, in my view.

We have a commissioner who completely investigates all such matters—it is not the case that he sees them as trivial; if he finds on investigation that a breach has been committed he has to move it on—so I think that it would be much better to allow the commissioner, who is already doing that good work, to have discretion to deal with minor breaches as he does now, but to report directly to the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee for sanctions. I am confident that the commissioner has the expertise and experience in that regard. The committee is fully supportive of the strongest possible system of standards, and my colleagues have adequately described that. In no way is the committee reducing accountability and transparency for the public. I support everything that has been said and the committee’s report.

I certainly do not want to weaken in any way the robust standards regime that we have. It speaks for itself. I do believe, however, that it is worth considering the matter and that we should ask the best people to look into it. For me, the best people are the commissioner and the Procurator Fiscal Service, who can give their considered opinions. There might be good reasons why the way in which we do things at present is the only way—I do not know. There may be a legal or administrative imperative whereby we would damage the system if we changed it in any way. If that is the case, I would not support the change, but I would certainly be grateful for the benefit of the knowledge of the commissioner and the Procurator Fiscal Service, and would ask them to consider the matter on behalf of Parliament.

16:31  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12951, in the name of Stewart Stevenson, on the proposal for a members’ interests bill. I call Stewart St...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
The role of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee is to keep the Parliament’s procedures and processes under constant review. The Scotl...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Joe FitzPatrick) SNP
I want to start by quickly reflecting on the background to the committee’s work on updating the members’ interests statute. The committee should be commended...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
Colleagues might find it useful to know that I have discussed the proposals with each of our present independent members. I note that none of them is going t...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I am sure that they would hold that view, because the committee has managed to ensure that the founding principle of treating all MSPs equally is fully refle...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lab
As a new member of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee who was appointed to it after it had heard evidence on the proposed bill, I th...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson take an intervention?
Patricia Ferguson Lab
I am certainly happy to.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Very briefly, Mr Stevenson. I am afraid that the member is coming to a close.
Stewart Stevenson SNP
That is fine.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
No. Please carry on, but I had to remind the member that she is to come to a close.
Stewart Stevenson SNP
Speaking personally and not as the committee convener, I take a different view from Patricia Ferguson on that issue, not because I do not think that more can...
Patricia Ferguson Lab
I am not sure that in the time that is allotted to me I can fully respond to Mr Stevenson’s concerns. I was going to go on to say that I was really pleased f...
Cameron Buchanan (Lothian) (Con) Con
There is so much to learn when a new member comes into the Parliament. I have to say that I found the rules and regulations of the SPPA Committee quite daunt...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Two members wish to contribute in the open debate. I call Gil Paterson. 16:26
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
Before I start, Presiding Officer, I wonder whether you will indulge me, since this is my first opportunity to speak. I want to record a personal message of ...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
I note that the lowering of the threshold for registered gifts is being undertaken to comply with the recommendation of the group of states against corruptio...
Cameron Buchanan Con
It is not worth saying much more than that, in the words of Nicholas Parsons, there should be no repetition, no duplication and no hesitation. I do not think...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
That gives me a little bit of time in hand for the rest of the closing speeches, if members wish to use it. 16:36
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I, too, thank the members of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee for their work in producing the draft bill and the work that they ar...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
The member will have noted that a few references have been made to paid advocacy. Would it be useful for us all to think about what “paid” means? It is not j...
Neil Bibby Lab
Yes, and I anticipate that the committee will consider those issues. As my colleague Patricia Ferguson said, the public sometimes do not appreciate the nicet...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
If we accept the principle that there should not be outside jobs, why should there be a ban only on MSPs or MPs being directors or consultants? Why not a ban...
Neil Bibby Lab
Those are two roles that could have an impact on the public’s perception with regard to conflicts of interest. The committee should certainly start to consid...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
This has been a good and consensual debate that has reflected the approach that the committee has taken to moving forward on the issue. There has been genera...
Neil Bibby Lab
I am aware that ministers need to complete a register of ministers’ interests. Why is that not published online and publicly available? Does the minister bel...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Ministers have to fill out the parliamentary register of members’ interests in the same way as every other member does. They are not exempt from any of the p...
Neil Bibby Lab
I contacted SPICe about the issue. It said that the Scottish Government maintains its own register of interests for ministers, which is not published. Will t...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Although there are perhaps other registers, all ministers are obliged to comply with the same rules as every other member of the Parliament is. Ministers go ...
Patricia Ferguson Lab
It would be helpful if the minister clarified whether there is a ministerial register—that is the point. If there is, why is it not published? A member could...