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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 01 April 2015

01 Apr 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Economy and Finances

Not at the moment, Mr Brodie.

We see from Fiscal Affairs Scotland, another expert group, figures for 2019-20. I have given members the likely figure for 2015-16, but I will fast forward to the end of this session of Parliament. According to Fiscal Affairs Scotland, the UK would have a positive fiscal balance of 0.3 per cent of gross domestic product, but if Scotland were to go through full fiscal autonomy it would have a fiscal deficit of 4.3 per cent. The UK would be in the second year of a small surplus of just over £7 billion, but Scotland would have a deficit of over £8 billion by the end of this session of Parliament. What would happen if we were to go for it and were then hit by another fiscal shock? That would be very difficult to cope with. I repeat that we would have to have £8 billion-worth of spending cuts on top of the ones that we are already going to have, or we will have tax increases or increased borrowing.

I do not claim that the Treasury, as part of the UK Government, is quite as independent as the IFS, but I invite the Scottish Government to challenge its figures on full fiscal autonomy. The Treasury has pointed out that there would be a deficit of £7.8 billion in the next financial year and that that would rise to £7.9 billion in 2018-19 and £8.4 billion in 2019-20, which is broadly in line with the estimates of others.

This morning, we heard from Jim McColl, who is a hugely respected businessman and member of the Council of Economic Advisers, who wants full fiscal autonomy. He accepts that there would be a gap. In response to the BBC, he said:

“There would be a gap if you were allocating all these revenues. Yes, there would be”.

That is a direct lift from the BBC website. That should be contrasted with the Scottish Government’s approach. In the same article, it said:

“Scotland already more than pays its own way”.

It did not say that Scotland pays its own way; it said:

“Scotland already more than pays its own way”.

If we look at last year’s and this year’s GERS figures, we see that that is not true.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12857, in the name of Gavin Brown, on Scotland’s economy and finances. 14:40
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
The Scottish Conservatives want to have a focused and analytical debate on the subject, specifically on the issue of full fiscal autonomy and the likely effe...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I wonder whether the member accepts the principle that the Scottish Government and the SNP want both more powers for Scotland and the best possible deal for ...
Gavin Brown Con
I am not sure whether Mr Mason simply does not understand the arithmetic or whether that is actually an admission from Mr Mason, who is a straightforward cha...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Gavin Brown Con
Perhaps we are about to get the answer to my question from Mr MacKenzie.
Mike MacKenzie SNP
I wonder whether the IFS calculation that the member has laid out has taken into account the potential outcomes of the forthcoming UK election and how it has...
Gavin Brown Con
The IFS figure is based on the projections set out by the UK Government at the time of the March budget, so no—the IFS figure does not take into account what...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Gavin Brown Con
Not at the moment, Mr Brodie. We see from Fiscal Affairs Scotland, another expert group, figures for 2019-20. I have given members the likely figure for 201...
Chic Brodie SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Gavin Brown Con
If we look at the projections for next year’s GERS figures, we see that that is not true. Not a single independent respected economist or forecaster on the p...
Chic Brodie SNP
A man of great thought. Mr Brown goes on about the numbers. Can he explain why, under the country and regional analysis adjustments in 2012-13, which fed th...
Gavin Brown Con
I am not quite sure whether that was Chic Brodie playing sudoku with a few numbers. It was probably nothing much more than that. In all seriousness, the Sco...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
Scotland requires the social and economic powers that are necessary to reflect the people of Scotland’s needs and preferences and to enable the people of Sco...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Fraser allows me to make a bit of progress, I will give way in a second. In considering those issues and making our case, I should point out that we a...
Gavin Brown Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
John Swinney SNP
I will give way to Mr Brown, and I remember that I promised to give way to Mr Fraser, too.
Gavin Brown Con
I certainly do not think that we are incapable of doing what the cabinet secretary has suggested, but I do think that the Scottish Government should be candi...
John Swinney SNP
That was not the inference that I took from Mr Brown’s speech. With the full policy levers of independence, we could improve on the performance that we have ...
Murdo Fraser Con
The question that I wished to ask the cabinet secretary is this: if he is right in his analysis and if he is right in saying that the Scottish Government is ...
John Swinney SNP
I will come on to address how that will come about, but first I want to go through some of the implications of different responsibilities being exercised in ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
The IFS also said that there would be a £7.6 billion gap. If we take the assumptions about the country’s economic performance that are made in the Government...
John Swinney SNP
Jackie Baillie passes by the caveat that the IFS included, which is that the economy’s performance can be influenced as a consequence of exercising the respo...
Gavin Brown Con
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way for a second time. In his view, the correct timescale for independence was 18 months. In his view, what...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You are in your final minute, cabinet secretary.
John Swinney SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. The timescale would inevitably be a product of negotiation with the UK Government. I can set out my view all I want, but I mus...
Jackie Baillie Lab
The cabinet secretary will hear from the Labour Party.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Order, please. The cabinet secretary is closing. We must hear him.