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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 01 April 2015

01 Apr 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Economy and Finances

I am not sure whether Mr Mason simply does not understand the arithmetic or whether that is actually an admission from Mr Mason, who is a straightforward character when it comes to debating, that we would actually be worse off in Scotland were we to go for full fiscal autonomy and therefore he is not going to argue for it. That is somewhat against what ministers on his front bench will argue today and have argued over the past weeks and months.

The third reason why we want this debate is that the Scottish Government has failed to publish any figures on the basic impact on our finances of full fiscal autonomy. It has been able to ignore some of the more challenging questions in the wider debates on the economy that we have had in the Parliament. Today, we want to debate the specific issue so that we can hear straight from the Deputy First Minister what those figures are. We implore him to publish the figures so that the people of Scotland can see in a transparent fashion what the impact would be.

Some people in this country may well want full fiscal autonomy even if it means that we are markedly worse off, and that is their right. However, many people will be voting on the judgment of whether we will be better or worse off. That is why the Scottish Government, as the Government in this country, has a duty to publish those figures so that people can make their own decisions.

I will look at what the experts have been saying. The Institute for Fiscal Studies, which has independent and highly regarded experts, has been pretty up front on the issue. The IFS has looked at the reduced oil revenues, due to a lower price, higher costs and tax breaks; it has also looked at what the fiscal position would be for Scotland and for the United Kingdom. We know through the “Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland” figures that the UK had a fiscal deficit of 5.6 per cent in 2013-14 and that Scotland had a fiscal deficit of 8.1 per cent, which is a marked difference. However, the IFS projections suggest that the deficit for the UK would drop in 2014-15 to 5 per cent, and then down to 4 per cent in 2015-16. For Scotland, under full fiscal autonomy, the deficit would increase to 8.6 per cent for 2014-15 and stay at 8.6 per cent for the following year.

By the end of the 2015-16 financial year, we could have a position in which the UK had a falling deficit of 4 per cent but Scotland had a rising deficit of 8.6 per cent, or more than double the UK deficit. That would translate, as the IFS states, to a £7.6 billion gap that would have to be plugged by a measure such as decreasing spending. However, that would have to be over and above the trajectory of the UK Government for that as set out in the recent budget, so it would mean having every spending reduction set out by the UK and £7.6 billion on top of that. However, if the Scottish Government did not want to make £7.6 billion-worth of cuts, it would have to increase tax to a degree or increase borrowing to degree, but the most likely outcome would probably be a combination of all three.

Does the Scottish Government accept that figure of £7.6 billion? Every time the Scottish Government has been asked that question, as it was again today by Neil Bibby at portfolio question time, it has ignored it. Does the Scottish Government accept the figure of £7.6 billion or does it have an alternative figure? If it does, will it publish it? Will the Scottish Government tell this chamber and the people of Scotland what it believes the deficit figure to be?

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12857, in the name of Gavin Brown, on Scotland’s economy and finances. 14:40
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
The Scottish Conservatives want to have a focused and analytical debate on the subject, specifically on the issue of full fiscal autonomy and the likely effe...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I wonder whether the member accepts the principle that the Scottish Government and the SNP want both more powers for Scotland and the best possible deal for ...
Gavin Brown Con
I am not sure whether Mr Mason simply does not understand the arithmetic or whether that is actually an admission from Mr Mason, who is a straightforward cha...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Gavin Brown Con
Perhaps we are about to get the answer to my question from Mr MacKenzie.
Mike MacKenzie SNP
I wonder whether the IFS calculation that the member has laid out has taken into account the potential outcomes of the forthcoming UK election and how it has...
Gavin Brown Con
The IFS figure is based on the projections set out by the UK Government at the time of the March budget, so no—the IFS figure does not take into account what...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Gavin Brown Con
Not at the moment, Mr Brodie. We see from Fiscal Affairs Scotland, another expert group, figures for 2019-20. I have given members the likely figure for 201...
Chic Brodie SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Gavin Brown Con
If we look at the projections for next year’s GERS figures, we see that that is not true. Not a single independent respected economist or forecaster on the p...
Chic Brodie SNP
A man of great thought. Mr Brown goes on about the numbers. Can he explain why, under the country and regional analysis adjustments in 2012-13, which fed th...
Gavin Brown Con
I am not quite sure whether that was Chic Brodie playing sudoku with a few numbers. It was probably nothing much more than that. In all seriousness, the Sco...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
Scotland requires the social and economic powers that are necessary to reflect the people of Scotland’s needs and preferences and to enable the people of Sco...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Fraser allows me to make a bit of progress, I will give way in a second. In considering those issues and making our case, I should point out that we a...
Gavin Brown Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
John Swinney SNP
I will give way to Mr Brown, and I remember that I promised to give way to Mr Fraser, too.
Gavin Brown Con
I certainly do not think that we are incapable of doing what the cabinet secretary has suggested, but I do think that the Scottish Government should be candi...
John Swinney SNP
That was not the inference that I took from Mr Brown’s speech. With the full policy levers of independence, we could improve on the performance that we have ...
Murdo Fraser Con
The question that I wished to ask the cabinet secretary is this: if he is right in his analysis and if he is right in saying that the Scottish Government is ...
John Swinney SNP
I will come on to address how that will come about, but first I want to go through some of the implications of different responsibilities being exercised in ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
The IFS also said that there would be a £7.6 billion gap. If we take the assumptions about the country’s economic performance that are made in the Government...
John Swinney SNP
Jackie Baillie passes by the caveat that the IFS included, which is that the economy’s performance can be influenced as a consequence of exercising the respo...
Gavin Brown Con
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way for a second time. In his view, the correct timescale for independence was 18 months. In his view, what...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You are in your final minute, cabinet secretary.
John Swinney SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. The timescale would inevitably be a product of negotiation with the UK Government. I can set out my view all I want, but I mus...
Jackie Baillie Lab
The cabinet secretary will hear from the Labour Party.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Order, please. The cabinet secretary is closing. We must hear him.