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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 18 March 2015

18 Mar 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
In-work Poverty
Grahame, Christine SNP Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale Watch on SPTV

I very much identify with the tenor of the independent and Green motion. It is ironic that we are having this debate on budget day. Members can call me cynical, but I suspect that the gap between the rich and the poor will get even greater. I say to Neil Findlay that it is regrettable that, under Labour Governments over the years, I have also seen the gap between rich and poor getting greater.

No one in work should need to apply to the benefits system to enable them to meet the level of the living wage. In principle that is wrong, and in practice it means that the state—you and I—are subsidising employers, which is just plain wrong. I congratulate the SNP Government, which is paying all Scottish Government employees across central Government, its agencies and the national health service the living wage—the living wage, not the statutory minimum wage. Of course, our powers in this Parliament are so limited that we can apply only elastoplast and not the invasive surgery that is needed, as Neil Findlay said, to deal with the cancer of poverty, both in work and out of work.

In the Midlothian part of my constituency, 15.6 per cent of those who are in work earn less than £7 an hour. That figure comes from “Addressing Child Poverty in Midlothian: Action Plan 2012–17”. Average weekly earnings for Midlothian residents, both male and female, are currently significantly less than both the Scottish and British averages, and for women the picture is worse.

The picture in the Borders is even worse than in Midlothian. In the Borders, 19.7 per cent of workers earn less than £7 per hour, because although employment rates are high in the Borders, there is a lack of well-paid work, both historically and currently—and, even then, as we all know, work is not a route out of poverty. There are even more barriers for people entering employment—for example, if they have a disability or are carers. Indeed, in terms of the lowest pay, Scottish Borders Council ranks 28th out of the 32 local authorities.

Those are the facts and statistics, but people are more than statistics. They are individuals trapped in low-paid jobs and zero-hours contracts, driven to apply to the state for financial assistance.

As for the benefits system, people must almost have a degree in mathematics to make a claim. There are 42 pages on the HM Revenue & Customs website as a guide to the working tax credit and the child tax credit. Applicants certainly need stamina—or perhaps desperation will get them there. Even if they do claim and receive payment, it can all go skew-whiff, and months or years later the tax man could come knocking at their door looking to claw back some so-called overpayment.

Added to the stress of being underpaid, and hence undervalued—which is key—people’s problems are compounded by a benefits system that will grind them down even further. I take issue with Annabel Goldie’s claim that the example given by Alison Johnstone is only one illustration. Such instances are too commonplace.

Still, people can always be referred to the local food bank, although having to get provisions has nothing to do with poverty and benefits cuts, according to David Mundell, our only Tory MP in Scotland. He refutes the evidence from MSPs, academics, charities and religious organisations of a link between welfare reform and the use of food banks, as brought out in a report by Holyrood’s Welfare Reform Committee. There we have it: in Scotland, poverty, both in work and out of work, has nothing to do with Westminster’s policies. We have David Mundell’s word for that.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12678, in the name of Patrick Harvie, on an end to in-work poverty. 14:41
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) Green
I am pleased to open our debate. The Scottish Green Party is campaigning for a £10 minimum wage for all by 2020, because no one should be expected to work fo...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
Does the member accept that many board directors can enhance their pay in many ways, including through share options and all sorts of other, unquantifiable t...
Alison Johnstone Green
That point is well made and should be taken into account. It means that directors’ wages are larger than they appear to be on their pay packet. The Greens w...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Would Alison Johnstone care to reflect on how full fiscal autonomy and the ripping out of £4 billion to £6 billion of public money would impact on her vision?
Alison Johnstone Green
It is fair to say that, as part of the United Kingdom—we find ourselves in that situation at the moment—we need a system that is fair and sustainable. The i...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Many thanks. I remind members who wish to participate that they should press their request-to-speak button. 14:51
The Cabinet Secretary for Fair Work, Skills and Training (Roseanna Cunningham) SNP
In the programme for government, we set out a range of cross-portfolio policies that were aimed at reducing inequality, including actions on fair work such a...
Neil Findlay Lab
One of the issues that I have raised with the minister before is the use of umbrella contracts. Last week, the Welsh Assembly issued a policy advice note on ...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
We saw what the Welsh Government issued, and officials are currently looking at that very carefully. We are always open to the possibility that good practice...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that you must draw to a close.
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
It is very important to engage across the board. It is clear that there is a great deal that can be done. By working together, we can have an impact. As a G...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that we are tight for time this afternoon. 14:58
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
The low-pay and insecure job culture that we see at present is like a cancer in our society. It damages people. It eats away at their pride, relationships, m...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
People who work hard for their families, try to put some money aside and make the right choices deserve reward and the security of a decent standard of livin...
Alison Johnstone Green
I have a constituent who was asked to be both at the jobcentre and at an interview for a training course at the same time, which resulted in him having his b...
Annabel Goldie Con
That is certainly illustrative of an element of very bad practice in the system. I do not dispute that, but that is not to say that the system as a whole is ...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Will the member give way?
Annabel Goldie Con
No. I am pushed for time. I am sorry. Of course it is right to challenge businesses, where they are able to do so, to pay their employees fairly. The living...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Annabel Goldie Con
I am sorry. I am pushed for time. The further increases announced by the chancellor today will mean even more money being kept by the earner. That is real h...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We turn to the open debate. I ask for speeches of four minutes, please. 15:09
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I very much identify with the tenor of the independent and Green motion. It is ironic that we are having this debate on budget day. Members can call me cynic...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Will Christine Grahame take an intervention?
Christine Grahame SNP
I am in the last 30 seconds of my speech. As for the Labour amendment, I have a lot in common with Neil Findlay’s sentiments, but Labour hitched itself to ...
Neil Findlay Lab
Full fiscal autonomy.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Order.
Christine Grahame SNP
Labour blocked that and kept the Tories in power.
Neil Findlay Lab
Four billion.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Order.