Hansard

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA

The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12423, in the name of Marco Biagi, on the commission on local tax reform. 15:00

The Minister for Local Government and Community Empowerment (Marco Biagi) SNP

In looking at tax, we in the Scottish Government base our approach on four principles: efficiency, convenience, certainty and the tax’s being proportionate t...

Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con

Just a couple of weeks ago in the chamber, John Swinney said, in defending the council tax: “Council tax liability is linked to ability to pay through the c...

Marco Biagi SNP

It is “linked”, but I said that it “does not in a substantive sense adhere” to the fourth principle. There is a linkage, but it could be greater. The 1992...

Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con

Will the minister concede that the suggestion that council tax relief was abolished in Scotland is not entirely accurate, that a significant proportion of th...

Marco Biagi SNP

Council tax was a reserved benefit. It was abolished. The funding was devolved with a 10 per cent cut, and we have had to step in and plug that gap. In Engl...

Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab

Will the minister give way?

Marco Biagi SNP

I need to make some progress. Perhaps with the exception of the Conservatives, we all recognise that the present system, as defined in an act that was passe...

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con

I call Alex Rowley to speak to and move amendment S4M-12423.1. Mr Rowley, you have 9 minutes. 15:13

Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I was a bit concerned when I heard the minister starting off his speech by saying that we were going to have the debat...

Gavin Brown Con

I am grateful to Alex Rowley for giving way. Is it his view that the commission will not come up with recommendations?

Alex Rowley Lab

The commission may choose to advise on the benefits and merits of each of the different options that it considers. If it provides an informative report outli...

Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP

Will Alex Rowley give way?

Alex Rowley Lab

Yes.

The Deputy Presiding Officer Con

I am sorry, Mr Stewart, but the member is in his last minute.

Alex Rowley Lab

I am sorry—that is right. The point is that having the new commission look at local taxation in isolation will not be the panacea for all the local governme...

The Deputy Presiding Officer Con

Yes, please.

Alex Rowley Lab

The reason why that is so important is that local government does something every day that Parliament does not do. Every day, local authorities throughout Sc...

The Deputy Presiding Officer Con

We take your point.

Alex Rowley Lab

In all those areas, local government is key. It is far too important—

The Deputy Presiding Officer Con

You must close, please.

Alex Rowley Lab

—for us not to get the answers. That is why we will support the motion as amended today. I move amendment S4M-12423.1, to insert after “council tax”: “as p...

Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con

I begin with a degree of surprise after listening to the first two speeches—from the Scottish National Party and Labour—about what exactly the commission wil...

Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD

Surely Gavin Brown recognises that it is better to have tried, and perhaps failed and been enlightened, than not to have bothered at all.

Gavin Brown Con

The point is that, based on what the minister said, the commission will not even be trying to make firm recommendations. I am genuinely confused about what t...

Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP

Can Mr Brown join together an equation that says on the one hand that his group will produce proposals and be independent and on the other hand that it will ...

Gavin Brown Con

Not at all. Like the many commissions that I know Mr Crawford has been involved in and seen, although we have set up the commission, it will operate independ...

The Deputy Presiding Officer Con

We move to the open debate. I call Kevin Stewart, to be followed by Willie Rennie. We are tight for time, so I ask for six-minute speeches, please. 15:28

Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP

I thank my colleagues on the Local Government and Regeneration Committee for the work that they did on the flexibility and autonomy report. During our delibe...

Gavin Brown Con

That criticism would be fair if we were doing nothing but, given that we have set up our own commission, which will engage extremely widely, surely it is unf...