Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 26 February 2015
26 Feb 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Commission on Local Tax Reform
In looking at tax, we in the Scottish Government base our approach on four principles: efficiency, convenience, certainty and the tax’s being proportionate to the taxpayer’s ability to pay. Those principles are not new to the Government or in general; rather, they are attributable to Adam Smith, in book V of “The Wealth of Nations”.
The present council tax’s compliance with the first three of those maxims might be debated, but most recognise that the council tax, as set out in the Local Government Finance Act 1992—it has been with us for more than 20 years—does not in a substantive sense adhere to the fourth of those maxims: its being proportionate to the taxpayer’s ability to pay. That is not just our view; it is the view of many people around and outside the chamber who have proposed or suggested reforms over the years to try to address that shortcoming.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12423, in the name of Marco Biagi, on the commission on local tax reform. 15:00
The Minister for Local Government and Community Empowerment (Marco Biagi)
SNP
In looking at tax, we in the Scottish Government base our approach on four principles: efficiency, convenience, certainty and the tax’s being proportionate t...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Just a couple of weeks ago in the chamber, John Swinney said, in defending the council tax: “Council tax liability is linked to ability to pay through the c...
Marco Biagi
SNP
It is “linked”, but I said that it “does not in a substantive sense adhere” to the fourth principle. There is a linkage, but it could be greater. The 1992...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will the minister concede that the suggestion that council tax relief was abolished in Scotland is not entirely accurate, that a significant proportion of th...
Marco Biagi
SNP
Council tax was a reserved benefit. It was abolished. The funding was devolved with a 10 per cent cut, and we have had to step in and plug that gap. In Engl...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister give way?
Marco Biagi
SNP
I need to make some progress. Perhaps with the exception of the Conservatives, we all recognise that the present system, as defined in an act that was passe...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
I call Alex Rowley to speak to and move amendment S4M-12423.1. Mr Rowley, you have 9 minutes. 15:13
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Lab
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I was a bit concerned when I heard the minister starting off his speech by saying that we were going to have the debat...
Gavin Brown
Con
I am grateful to Alex Rowley for giving way. Is it his view that the commission will not come up with recommendations?
Alex Rowley
Lab
The commission may choose to advise on the benefits and merits of each of the different options that it considers. If it provides an informative report outli...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
Will Alex Rowley give way?
Alex Rowley
Lab
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I am sorry, Mr Stewart, but the member is in his last minute.
Alex Rowley
Lab
I am sorry—that is right. The point is that having the new commission look at local taxation in isolation will not be the panacea for all the local governme...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Yes, please.
Alex Rowley
Lab
The reason why that is so important is that local government does something every day that Parliament does not do. Every day, local authorities throughout Sc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We take your point.
Alex Rowley
Lab
In all those areas, local government is key. It is far too important—
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
You must close, please.
Alex Rowley
Lab
—for us not to get the answers. That is why we will support the motion as amended today. I move amendment S4M-12423.1, to insert after “council tax”: “as p...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I begin with a degree of surprise after listening to the first two speeches—from the Scottish National Party and Labour—about what exactly the commission wil...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
Surely Gavin Brown recognises that it is better to have tried, and perhaps failed and been enlightened, than not to have bothered at all.
Gavin Brown
Con
The point is that, based on what the minister said, the commission will not even be trying to make firm recommendations. I am genuinely confused about what t...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP)
SNP
Can Mr Brown join together an equation that says on the one hand that his group will produce proposals and be independent and on the other hand that it will ...
Gavin Brown
Con
Not at all. Like the many commissions that I know Mr Crawford has been involved in and seen, although we have set up the commission, it will operate independ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. I call Kevin Stewart, to be followed by Willie Rennie. We are tight for time, so I ask for six-minute speeches, please. 15:28
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
I thank my colleagues on the Local Government and Regeneration Committee for the work that they did on the flexibility and autonomy report. During our delibe...
Gavin Brown
Con
That criticism would be fair if we were doing nothing but, given that we have set up our own commission, which will engage extremely widely, surely it is unf...