Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 19 February 2015
19 Feb 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill
First, I apologise for speaking out of turn earlier. As they say on the radio programme, “I’m sorry, I’ll read that again.” I assure members that, from now on, I will be very nervous about pressing the wee green microphone button.
The Government seems to have little desire to listen to most people’s views on removing the liability to pay community charge debt. I have said before that there are many worrying questions; I am compelled to ask them again. How is the bill fair to the people who paid the charge? Will it stand up to a legal challenge from those who would—understandably—seek compensation? That question is important. Will the compensation that is being offered to local authorities be reviewed to match the policy’s true cost? What will be the total effect of the worrying precedent that the bill sets on tax avoidance? For example, what about the council tax? We have heard from members about paying council tax arrears, which the bill will definitely have an effect on. As ever, the Government will not give many answers.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12344, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. I call on Marco Biagi...
The Minister for Local Government and Community Empowerment (Marco Biagi)
SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. On 2 October last year—
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Wait one second, Mr Biagi. I must ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quickly and quietly, please, as a mark of respect to the minister.
Marco Biagi
SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Is it okay for councils to look at the expanded electoral registers to track down council tax debt of, say, 18 years’ duration?
Marco Biagi
SNP
The issues that we face with the poll tax were created by very particular historical circumstances, in which there were high levels of protest, disruption, d...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Lab
I begin with something that I forgot to do at stage 1, which is thanking the Finance Committee. It should be put on the record that it did a good piece of wo...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
We have been against the bill from the beginning. We have been critical of the way in which it was announced and the lack of consultation. We are against the...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Does the member not think that a worse example is the big companies and the rich individuals who hide their money overseas, creating a huge tax gap? Are they...
Gavin Brown
Con
We are happy to debate tax evasion and tax avoidance of any nature in this chamber at any time, but today we are debating stage 3 of the specific bill in fro...
Kenny MacAskill (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
SNP
The debate is not about the principle of paying taxation; it is about the final burying of the poll tax. Like many members in the chamber, I have recently fi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
You must close, please.
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
On that point, Presiding Officer, I will end. 16:28
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
I was very happy to support this bill soon after it was published, because it is the right thing to do. However, we have to respond to the points that Gavin ...
Gavin Brown
Con
I note that Perth and Kinross Council, which Malcolm Chisholm mentioned, also said: “Beyond this issue we also have further concerns about the potential imp...
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
Well, that seems to contradict the quote that I highlighted. In any case, the more fundamental point is that Gavin Brown does not regard the poll tax as bei...
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
SNP
I speak not so much as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Aberdeenshire East but as Alex from Strichen, who was moved to call the “Call Kaye” phone-in...
Gavin Brown
Con
It is interesting that Alex Salmond criticises others for not being in the chamber to vote or debate, but let us move past that. If it is so iniquitous, why ...
Alex Salmond
SNP
Because of the three reasons that I outlined. First, the poll tax cost more to collect in many circumstances than could be collected. Secondly, the debt is m...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
I am pleased that the bill has got to stage 3 and that it has the widespread support that it obviously has. The community charge was a bad tax, and my collea...
Cameron Buchanan (Lothian) (Con)
Con
First, I apologise for speaking out of turn earlier. As they say on the radio programme, “I’m sorry, I’ll read that again.” I assure members that, from now o...
Michael Russell (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
SNP
The answer that the member seeks on why the Government is so passionate is simple. I think that Gavin Brown was 14 when the poll tax came in. Many members in...
Cameron Buchanan
Con
I was not 14 at that time. This is a question of principle rather than anything else. The principle is about paying taxes and not about whether the tax is fa...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind)
Ind
What does Cameron Buchanan say to his Westminster colleagues who have supported those who have been offshoring their accounts to avoid paying tax in the UK?
Cameron Buchanan
Con
That is more the point that John Mason made. I will not say anything about that, because it is not what we are talking about. Interruption. No, it is not. We...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Order.
Cameron Buchanan
Con
Many of my constituents have contacted me to express their opposition to the bill. They are absolutely right—it is unfair. No matter the spin that is offered...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
As other members have done, I thank the Finance Committee and the clerks to the committee for scrutinising the bill in the run-up to the stage 3 debate. Asi...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
SNP
The member might care to clarify what she said. There is a 20-year bar on recovering debts rather than chasing them. Is that not kind of the point?
Jackie Baillie
Lab
The member is right. There is a 20-year legal bar on recovering debts. However, I think that he will find that most local authorities said that, practically,...