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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 February 2015

19 Feb 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill
Salmond, Alex SNP Aberdeenshire East Watch on SPTV

I speak not so much as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Aberdeenshire East but as Alex from Strichen, who was moved to call the “Call Kaye” phone-in programme on the very subject that we are debating. What moved me to do that was the enthusiasm that was being displayed by Councillor Jim Gifford, the leader of Aberdeenshire Council, who seemed to want to use the magnificently enlarged electoral register as a means of hounding people for debts that were 20 years old and more.

I found three particular difficulties with Councillor Gifford’s argument. One was the fact that he seemed entirely oblivious to the fact that the pittance that was being collected by Aberdeenshire Council most certainly meant that it was in the position that Alex Rowley outlined, in which it was costing more to collect the money than was being collected. The second was the fact that he seemed unaware that much of the outstanding debt was an illusion, in that it was owed by people who either had never existed in the first place or had died in the past 23 years. It was a mythical debt, in terms of its total. The third was the fact that he seemed to be unaware that, as the minister indicated, because of the cumulative charges, people who were having the debt collected from them had probably paid it many times over, and, with regard to people who had not been paying the debt, by definition, if it was new debt, it was outlawed by the 20-year rule because—again, by definition—poll tax debt is more than 20 years old. Councillor Gifford was unaware of all of those things, hence I was moved to enter the debate on the “Call Kaye” programme.

However, that touches on the importance of the connection between non-payment and voting. It has been widely reported in the press that the Liberal Democrats owe £800,000 to the Police Service of Scotland—an £800,000 debt that they are refusing to pay. The Labour Party, the Scottish National Party, the Green Party and—for all I know—the Scottish Socialist Party pay for the security at their party conferences, and there are no debts outstanding. However, it has been widely reported that the Liberal Democrats owe £800,000. It has even been reported that the Conservative Party has an outstanding debt to the Police Service of Scotland.

I do not know whether that is a non-payment campaign. The Liberal Democrats might be short of money, but the Conservatives cannot be short of money, as their tax-evading donors ensure that they are not. However, even given those circumstances, I would never draw the conclusion that they should be stopped from voting in the Parliament because they are engaged in a non-payment campaign, deliberately or otherwise, against the Police Service of Scotland—mind you, the Liberal Democrats look like they have beaten me to it by not turning up to vote or debate in the first place. It is a very dangerous connection to make.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12344, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. I call on Marco Biagi...
The Minister for Local Government and Community Empowerment (Marco Biagi) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. On 2 October last year—
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Wait one second, Mr Biagi. I must ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quickly and quietly, please, as a mark of respect to the minister.
Marco Biagi SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Is it okay for councils to look at the expanded electoral registers to track down council tax debt of, say, 18 years’ duration?
Marco Biagi SNP
The issues that we face with the poll tax were created by very particular historical circumstances, in which there were high levels of protest, disruption, d...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab
I begin with something that I forgot to do at stage 1, which is thanking the Finance Committee. It should be put on the record that it did a good piece of wo...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
We have been against the bill from the beginning. We have been critical of the way in which it was announced and the lack of consultation. We are against the...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member not think that a worse example is the big companies and the rich individuals who hide their money overseas, creating a huge tax gap? Are they...
Gavin Brown Con
We are happy to debate tax evasion and tax avoidance of any nature in this chamber at any time, but today we are debating stage 3 of the specific bill in fro...
Kenny MacAskill (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) SNP
The debate is not about the principle of paying taxation; it is about the final burying of the poll tax. Like many members in the chamber, I have recently fi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
You must close, please.
Kenny MacAskill SNP
On that point, Presiding Officer, I will end. 16:28
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I was very happy to support this bill soon after it was published, because it is the right thing to do. However, we have to respond to the points that Gavin ...
Gavin Brown Con
I note that Perth and Kinross Council, which Malcolm Chisholm mentioned, also said: “Beyond this issue we also have further concerns about the potential imp...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
Well, that seems to contradict the quote that I highlighted. In any case, the more fundamental point is that Gavin Brown does not regard the poll tax as bei...
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
I speak not so much as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Aberdeenshire East but as Alex from Strichen, who was moved to call the “Call Kaye” phone-in...
Gavin Brown Con
It is interesting that Alex Salmond criticises others for not being in the chamber to vote or debate, but let us move past that. If it is so iniquitous, why ...
Alex Salmond SNP
Because of the three reasons that I outlined. First, the poll tax cost more to collect in many circumstances than could be collected. Secondly, the debt is m...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased that the bill has got to stage 3 and that it has the widespread support that it obviously has. The community charge was a bad tax, and my collea...
Cameron Buchanan (Lothian) (Con) Con
First, I apologise for speaking out of turn earlier. As they say on the radio programme, “I’m sorry, I’ll read that again.” I assure members that, from now o...
Michael Russell (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) SNP
The answer that the member seeks on why the Government is so passionate is simple. I think that Gavin Brown was 14 when the poll tax came in. Many members in...
Cameron Buchanan Con
I was not 14 at that time. This is a question of principle rather than anything else. The principle is about paying taxes and not about whether the tax is fa...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind) Ind
What does Cameron Buchanan say to his Westminster colleagues who have supported those who have been offshoring their accounts to avoid paying tax in the UK?
Cameron Buchanan Con
That is more the point that John Mason made. I will not say anything about that, because it is not what we are talking about. Interruption. No, it is not. We...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Order.
Cameron Buchanan Con
Many of my constituents have contacted me to express their opposition to the bill. They are absolutely right—it is unfair. No matter the spin that is offered...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
As other members have done, I thank the Finance Committee and the clerks to the committee for scrutinising the bill in the run-up to the stage 3 debate. Asi...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
The member might care to clarify what she said. There is a 20-year bar on recovering debts rather than chasing them. Is that not kind of the point?
Jackie Baillie Lab
The member is right. There is a 20-year legal bar on recovering debts. However, I think that he will find that most local authorities said that, practically,...