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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 February 2015

19 Feb 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill
Chisholm, Malcolm Lab Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

Well, that seems to contradict the quote that I highlighted.

In any case, the more fundamental point is that Gavin Brown does not regard the poll tax as being different from other taxes, whereas most of us in the chamber do. Indeed, that is the fundamental dividing line between the Conservatives and other people in the chamber, and it is also the reason why I do not think that it will lead to the effects on the council tax that have been suggested.

There has never been a mass non-payment campaign about the council tax, because even those who are concerned about it recognise that, with its relation to people’s ability to pay, it is a fundamentally different tax. The collection rates show that. We have high rates for the council tax and we had much lower rates when the poll tax existed.

I believe that Mr Brown’s fears are unfounded and I believe that, in principle, we have to regard the poll tax as a fundamentally different tax from other taxes. It is certainly different from any tax that I have known in my lifetime. It is the most unfair and inequitable tax. Of course, large sections of Gavin Brown’s party recognised that at the time, as the issue split his party just as it united the rest of the country against it.

This is a historic day, when we can put the final nail in the coffin of the poll tax. For those of us with long political memories, it reminds us of the campaigns that we were involved in against the poll tax in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It was fundamentally different from any tax that we have ever seen.

Of course, there are people outside the chamber who have concerns about the proposal and I would make to them some of the points that I have made to Gavin Brown. However, it is important to put the issue in perspective when speaking to people who have concerns. One thing that I say to them is, “You know, this is just a Scottish issue. They haven’t been collecting poll tax in England for 10 years.” I realise that there are legislative reasons for that, but it helps to put things into perspective. Of course, the other point that is helpful in that regard is that, as other members have said, there is not much left to collect anyway. We should remind people that 10 local authorities already do not collect poll tax debt, and that only £327,000 was collected last year. I understand that some people feel intensely about this issue, but I think that giving that perspective helps to take a little bit of the heat out of the argument.

I am glad that most people in the chamber are united behind the bill. I accept that the Conservatives, perhaps because they introduced the poll tax, have a certain affection for it still and do not wish to separate it from the other taxes that succeeded it. However, I think that most people in Scotland will be pleased that, today, we are finally drawing a line under that era of unfair taxation. Of course, as Alex Rowley said, the important matter now is to fix local government finance. We have not yet come up with the best solution, but I think that everyone is agreed that the council tax was a big improvement on the poll tax, so we should ensure that all our energies are devoted to collecting the council tax—because, my goodness, local government needs it—but we should also cast into the history books and the dustbin of history the unfair and unwanted poll tax.

16:32  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12344, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. I call on Marco Biagi...
The Minister for Local Government and Community Empowerment (Marco Biagi) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. On 2 October last year—
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Wait one second, Mr Biagi. I must ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quickly and quietly, please, as a mark of respect to the minister.
Marco Biagi SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Is it okay for councils to look at the expanded electoral registers to track down council tax debt of, say, 18 years’ duration?
Marco Biagi SNP
The issues that we face with the poll tax were created by very particular historical circumstances, in which there were high levels of protest, disruption, d...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab
I begin with something that I forgot to do at stage 1, which is thanking the Finance Committee. It should be put on the record that it did a good piece of wo...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
We have been against the bill from the beginning. We have been critical of the way in which it was announced and the lack of consultation. We are against the...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member not think that a worse example is the big companies and the rich individuals who hide their money overseas, creating a huge tax gap? Are they...
Gavin Brown Con
We are happy to debate tax evasion and tax avoidance of any nature in this chamber at any time, but today we are debating stage 3 of the specific bill in fro...
Kenny MacAskill (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) SNP
The debate is not about the principle of paying taxation; it is about the final burying of the poll tax. Like many members in the chamber, I have recently fi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
You must close, please.
Kenny MacAskill SNP
On that point, Presiding Officer, I will end. 16:28
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I was very happy to support this bill soon after it was published, because it is the right thing to do. However, we have to respond to the points that Gavin ...
Gavin Brown Con
I note that Perth and Kinross Council, which Malcolm Chisholm mentioned, also said: “Beyond this issue we also have further concerns about the potential imp...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
Well, that seems to contradict the quote that I highlighted. In any case, the more fundamental point is that Gavin Brown does not regard the poll tax as bei...
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
I speak not so much as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Aberdeenshire East but as Alex from Strichen, who was moved to call the “Call Kaye” phone-in...
Gavin Brown Con
It is interesting that Alex Salmond criticises others for not being in the chamber to vote or debate, but let us move past that. If it is so iniquitous, why ...
Alex Salmond SNP
Because of the three reasons that I outlined. First, the poll tax cost more to collect in many circumstances than could be collected. Secondly, the debt is m...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased that the bill has got to stage 3 and that it has the widespread support that it obviously has. The community charge was a bad tax, and my collea...
Cameron Buchanan (Lothian) (Con) Con
First, I apologise for speaking out of turn earlier. As they say on the radio programme, “I’m sorry, I’ll read that again.” I assure members that, from now o...
Michael Russell (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) SNP
The answer that the member seeks on why the Government is so passionate is simple. I think that Gavin Brown was 14 when the poll tax came in. Many members in...
Cameron Buchanan Con
I was not 14 at that time. This is a question of principle rather than anything else. The principle is about paying taxes and not about whether the tax is fa...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind) Ind
What does Cameron Buchanan say to his Westminster colleagues who have supported those who have been offshoring their accounts to avoid paying tax in the UK?
Cameron Buchanan Con
That is more the point that John Mason made. I will not say anything about that, because it is not what we are talking about. Interruption. No, it is not. We...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Order.
Cameron Buchanan Con
Many of my constituents have contacted me to express their opposition to the bill. They are absolutely right—it is unfair. No matter the spin that is offered...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
As other members have done, I thank the Finance Committee and the clerks to the committee for scrutinising the bill in the run-up to the stage 3 debate. Asi...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
The member might care to clarify what she said. There is a 20-year bar on recovering debts rather than chasing them. Is that not kind of the point?
Jackie Baillie Lab
The member is right. There is a 20-year legal bar on recovering debts. However, I think that he will find that most local authorities said that, practically,...