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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 February 2015

19 Feb 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill
Biagi, Marco SNP Edinburgh Central Watch on SPTV

The issues that we face with the poll tax were created by very particular historical circumstances, in which there were high levels of protest, disruption, deliberate non-payment and deliberate non-registration. That is what we are trying to address. I will come to the issue of council tax debt, because it is important that councils collect council tax and do so in a responsible way.

Had we taken a different approach in the bill, by, for example, making it illegal for local authorities to collect poll tax debt, it would have caused all kinds of difficulties. For example, if debtors had not been able to cancel repayment arrangements in time, councils could have found themselves breaking the law simply by receiving money. Alternatively, what if a civic-minded individual simply wanted to make a gratis payment out of the blue? We did not want to replace one uncertainty with another.

It is not only the basic poll tax debt that is being extinguished, but all the associated liabilities, including the interest charges and penalties that were imposed as part of the process of collecting the poll tax. With many such debts, as many money advisers will be aware, penalty can be heaped upon penalty and leave money still being repaid long after the principal has expired. Those paying off community charge debt up to 1 February include some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in society, who were unable to pay at the time and were paying small sums towards arrears every week.

Extinguishing this historical debt will let local authorities concentrate on breaking the cycle of debt, as some of them explained in their evidence to the Finance Committee. As we know, many councils gave up pursuing historical poll tax debt years ago. There are 10 councils that will not receive any money from the settlement, having indicated that they did not intend to undertake any further collection. I should point out that the council tax collection rate in every one of those councils is at or higher than the Scottish average for in-year council tax collection. Each of those councils made a choice for their locality that today we are making for the nation as a whole.

In the stage 1 debate, I reminded the Parliament of the singular unfairness of the poll tax, the history of which goes back for more than 1,000 years. Members might be disappointed to hear that I do not intend to go over that detail again. However—and I know that I should not have to say this—I repeat that this Government believes that people should pay the tax for which they are liable under the laws of the land. Even after the bill is passed, as I hope it will be, it will remain for each local authority to determine the most appropriate means of recovering council tax debts. The bill leaves people’s liability to pay council tax and local authorities’ duty to collect it unaffected, although the Government will, as always, expect local authorities to pursue debts in a way that is sympathetic to the debtor’s needs and circumstances.

The bill also leaves unaffected the long-standing law that debts can expire, as indeed most of the outstanding poll tax debt now almost certainly has. In 2013-14, the authorities that still collected community charge debt collected only £327,000, which was down from a total of £1.3 million just a few years before in 2009-10. Clearly the total collected has been declining every year. Moreover, I note that the collection rate for the community charge over its lifetime was 88.4 per cent, whereas the in-year collection rate for the council tax is 95.2 per cent, with, as I have said, the expectation that more than 97 per cent of council tax will be collected once follow-up measures are taken.

Over the past week, we have read reports of one council after another setting its budget. Let us be honest: that has not been done without controversy, debate and extensive discussion. For the first time, however, councils need not take any element of the community charge into account in setting their budgets. That is the case not only for the authorities that had willingly already stopped collecting the community charge, but for all authorities.

I thank everybody who, in partnership with local authorities, has been involved in making sure that this will happen and in dealing with the bill’s expedited timetable. With the co-operation of the parliamentary authorities and the local authorities, we have been able to expedite the bill to ensure that it can be in force for the start of the next financial year.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill be passed.

16:10  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12344, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. I call on Marco Biagi...
The Minister for Local Government and Community Empowerment (Marco Biagi) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. On 2 October last year—
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Wait one second, Mr Biagi. I must ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quickly and quietly, please, as a mark of respect to the minister.
Marco Biagi SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Is it okay for councils to look at the expanded electoral registers to track down council tax debt of, say, 18 years’ duration?
Marco Biagi SNP
The issues that we face with the poll tax were created by very particular historical circumstances, in which there were high levels of protest, disruption, d...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab
I begin with something that I forgot to do at stage 1, which is thanking the Finance Committee. It should be put on the record that it did a good piece of wo...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
We have been against the bill from the beginning. We have been critical of the way in which it was announced and the lack of consultation. We are against the...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member not think that a worse example is the big companies and the rich individuals who hide their money overseas, creating a huge tax gap? Are they...
Gavin Brown Con
We are happy to debate tax evasion and tax avoidance of any nature in this chamber at any time, but today we are debating stage 3 of the specific bill in fro...
Kenny MacAskill (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) SNP
The debate is not about the principle of paying taxation; it is about the final burying of the poll tax. Like many members in the chamber, I have recently fi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
You must close, please.
Kenny MacAskill SNP
On that point, Presiding Officer, I will end. 16:28
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I was very happy to support this bill soon after it was published, because it is the right thing to do. However, we have to respond to the points that Gavin ...
Gavin Brown Con
I note that Perth and Kinross Council, which Malcolm Chisholm mentioned, also said: “Beyond this issue we also have further concerns about the potential imp...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
Well, that seems to contradict the quote that I highlighted. In any case, the more fundamental point is that Gavin Brown does not regard the poll tax as bei...
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
I speak not so much as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Aberdeenshire East but as Alex from Strichen, who was moved to call the “Call Kaye” phone-in...
Gavin Brown Con
It is interesting that Alex Salmond criticises others for not being in the chamber to vote or debate, but let us move past that. If it is so iniquitous, why ...
Alex Salmond SNP
Because of the three reasons that I outlined. First, the poll tax cost more to collect in many circumstances than could be collected. Secondly, the debt is m...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased that the bill has got to stage 3 and that it has the widespread support that it obviously has. The community charge was a bad tax, and my collea...
Cameron Buchanan (Lothian) (Con) Con
First, I apologise for speaking out of turn earlier. As they say on the radio programme, “I’m sorry, I’ll read that again.” I assure members that, from now o...
Michael Russell (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) SNP
The answer that the member seeks on why the Government is so passionate is simple. I think that Gavin Brown was 14 when the poll tax came in. Many members in...
Cameron Buchanan Con
I was not 14 at that time. This is a question of principle rather than anything else. The principle is about paying taxes and not about whether the tax is fa...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind) Ind
What does Cameron Buchanan say to his Westminster colleagues who have supported those who have been offshoring their accounts to avoid paying tax in the UK?
Cameron Buchanan Con
That is more the point that John Mason made. I will not say anything about that, because it is not what we are talking about. Interruption. No, it is not. We...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Order.
Cameron Buchanan Con
Many of my constituents have contacted me to express their opposition to the bill. They are absolutely right—it is unfair. No matter the spin that is offered...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
As other members have done, I thank the Finance Committee and the clerks to the committee for scrutinising the bill in the run-up to the stage 3 debate. Asi...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
The member might care to clarify what she said. There is a 20-year bar on recovering debts rather than chasing them. Is that not kind of the point?
Jackie Baillie Lab
The member is right. There is a 20-year legal bar on recovering debts. However, I think that he will find that most local authorities said that, practically,...