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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 February 2015

19 Feb 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill
Biagi, Marco SNP Edinburgh Central Watch on SPTV

On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further action to recover ancient debts that arose under the community charge, which we have all come to know as the poll tax. We are here not because we need to abolish the poll tax—strictly speaking, that took place 22 years ago—but because we must deal with what it left behind. Today we vote on legislation that will draw a line under the last remnants of that tax and, most important, put one of its last bitter legacies behind us once and for all and ensure that all can come forward and register to vote without fear.

The register is nothing less than the foundation that we lay under our democracy; it is that on which everything else rests. All that we do here is built on what has to be an authoritative and comprehensive account of those eligible to vote on the future of our country. It has to be so, because, if we are to be faithful to the principles of democracy, all those who have the right to vote should be free, and feel free, to exercise it in practice.

A fortnight ago at First Minister’s questions, concerns were rightly raised about reports that many hundreds of thousands of people might not yet have transferred to the new register under individual electoral registration. Any loss of voters from the register is a concern, but any growth as a result of genuine democratic spirit should be welcomed. We can be proud of the democratic spirit that our country showed in last year’s referendum. There was an 85 per cent turnout and an all-time high total of 4.3 million people on the electoral register. That has been noted, that has been praised and that has been celebrated in this chamber time after time as an example of democratic engagement that is second to none.

Yes, I know that many of the new names on the register were 16 and 17-year-olds for whom this was a democratic awakening of their own, but there were still significant numbers of people who had registered again for the first time in decades or who had never registered at all before. All of us probably know them, or we have knocked on their doors and spoken to them. Many were signed up to vote at makeshift stalls on high streets or, in one campaign, outside jobcentres. It was clear to us all that people were invigorated by that choice as by nothing before. In a democracy, that sort of awakening is precious. It must be cherished, and it must be nurtured.

It was because of the high level of registration that, after the referendum, the responses of some councils—just some—gave us concern. For example, Aberdeenshire Council was quoted in the media as saying that it was looking at the register to track down people who owed poll tax debt. On 30 September 2014, it said:

“If they don’t pay, we will go after them for that money.”

Defending their proposed approach, those councils referred to the statutory duty on local authorities to collect local taxes. They have that duty, as they should; when I spoke to Gavin Brown’s amendment, I reinforced the point that collecting taxes is important. The Abolition of Domestic Rates etc (Scotland) Act 1987 and the Local Government Finance Act 1992 make it the duty of every local authority to collect the taxes that it is owed. I therefore understand the councils that genuinely felt that they had to do something—they felt that it was their responsibility. As a result, although some councils had already ceased the collection of poll tax debt, there was space for legitimate doubt.

With the bill, we wanted to make it crystal clear that local authorities were absolved of their obligations to pursue and collect poll tax debt. We are not talking simply about a voluntary arrangement to cease collection; our aim is to deal with this debt—and this doubt—once and for all. Therefore, we wanted to ensure that the legislation was simple, straightforward and unambiguous, and it has to be said that this is one of the shorter and more-to-the-point bills that the Parliament has considered. We must put the issue beyond doubt by extinguishing the liability for the poll tax entirely.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12344, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. I call on Marco Biagi...
The Minister for Local Government and Community Empowerment (Marco Biagi) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. On 2 October last year—
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Wait one second, Mr Biagi. I must ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quickly and quietly, please, as a mark of respect to the minister.
Marco Biagi SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Is it okay for councils to look at the expanded electoral registers to track down council tax debt of, say, 18 years’ duration?
Marco Biagi SNP
The issues that we face with the poll tax were created by very particular historical circumstances, in which there were high levels of protest, disruption, d...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab
I begin with something that I forgot to do at stage 1, which is thanking the Finance Committee. It should be put on the record that it did a good piece of wo...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
We have been against the bill from the beginning. We have been critical of the way in which it was announced and the lack of consultation. We are against the...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member not think that a worse example is the big companies and the rich individuals who hide their money overseas, creating a huge tax gap? Are they...
Gavin Brown Con
We are happy to debate tax evasion and tax avoidance of any nature in this chamber at any time, but today we are debating stage 3 of the specific bill in fro...
Kenny MacAskill (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) SNP
The debate is not about the principle of paying taxation; it is about the final burying of the poll tax. Like many members in the chamber, I have recently fi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
You must close, please.
Kenny MacAskill SNP
On that point, Presiding Officer, I will end. 16:28
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I was very happy to support this bill soon after it was published, because it is the right thing to do. However, we have to respond to the points that Gavin ...
Gavin Brown Con
I note that Perth and Kinross Council, which Malcolm Chisholm mentioned, also said: “Beyond this issue we also have further concerns about the potential imp...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
Well, that seems to contradict the quote that I highlighted. In any case, the more fundamental point is that Gavin Brown does not regard the poll tax as bei...
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
I speak not so much as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Aberdeenshire East but as Alex from Strichen, who was moved to call the “Call Kaye” phone-in...
Gavin Brown Con
It is interesting that Alex Salmond criticises others for not being in the chamber to vote or debate, but let us move past that. If it is so iniquitous, why ...
Alex Salmond SNP
Because of the three reasons that I outlined. First, the poll tax cost more to collect in many circumstances than could be collected. Secondly, the debt is m...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased that the bill has got to stage 3 and that it has the widespread support that it obviously has. The community charge was a bad tax, and my collea...
Cameron Buchanan (Lothian) (Con) Con
First, I apologise for speaking out of turn earlier. As they say on the radio programme, “I’m sorry, I’ll read that again.” I assure members that, from now o...
Michael Russell (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) SNP
The answer that the member seeks on why the Government is so passionate is simple. I think that Gavin Brown was 14 when the poll tax came in. Many members in...
Cameron Buchanan Con
I was not 14 at that time. This is a question of principle rather than anything else. The principle is about paying taxes and not about whether the tax is fa...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind) Ind
What does Cameron Buchanan say to his Westminster colleagues who have supported those who have been offshoring their accounts to avoid paying tax in the UK?
Cameron Buchanan Con
That is more the point that John Mason made. I will not say anything about that, because it is not what we are talking about. Interruption. No, it is not. We...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Order.
Cameron Buchanan Con
Many of my constituents have contacted me to express their opposition to the bill. They are absolutely right—it is unfair. No matter the spin that is offered...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
As other members have done, I thank the Finance Committee and the clerks to the committee for scrutinising the bill in the run-up to the stage 3 debate. Asi...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
The member might care to clarify what she said. There is a 20-year bar on recovering debts rather than chasing them. Is that not kind of the point?
Jackie Baillie Lab
The member is right. There is a 20-year legal bar on recovering debts. However, I think that he will find that most local authorities said that, practically,...