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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 January 2015

29 Jan 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Mr Swinney claims to know, but he did not carry out a consultation. He said that he consulted COSLA, but the Scottish Government did not formally do so. We were told by COSLA in committee that the conversation lasted a matter of minutes and that it was simply a conversation about quantum and how much each council was going to get in recompense. There was no discussion of the principles or what impact the legislation could have on payment of council tax in the future.

I can demonstrate to members how far apart the Scottish Government and the councils are. When I asked COSLA whether councils would be compensated if their council tax collection rates faltered as a consequence of the legislation, they seemed to be under the impression that they would be. In evidence to the committee, the COSLA representative suggested that councils would be compensated if that were to happen. When I put the same question to Mr Swinney, he said that there was absolutely no way in which COSLA would be compensated if that were to happen.

We do not know whether council tax collection rates will fall. COSLA has suggested that they might, but the Scottish Government has said that there is no way that COSLA would be compensated. The cost of failure, if that were to happen, would fall on the councils and not on the Scottish Government, which has centrally forced the policy on COSLA, the councils and the rest of the country.

If the policy has an impact, we could be talking about significant sums. There are more than £1 billion of council tax arrears going back over the past two decades or so. It might sound great when Mr Swinney says that 97.5 per cent of council tax is collected, but when one tots up the unpaid council tax it amounts to more than £1 billion.

Even if the policy has a small impact on council tax collection, it will have a big impact on councils and public services. The Scottish Government ought to be on the hook for that, because it is the Government’s policy. The Government has forced it through: it refused to consult or to try to thrash out and see through some of the issues, instead of just pushing the bill through as it is going to do today.

As I said at the start, we are not fighting the policy out of any love or affection for the community charge. We have listened to councils and we think that there are pragmatic reasons for being against the policy, but we are against it too in principle, because—as Mr Swinney said—those who can pay their taxes should properly pay those for which they are liable.

16:03  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12176, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. 15:31
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Were local authorities consulted on the principle of the bill?
John Swinney SNP
No. The Government decided on the principle of the bill. The Government takes policy decisions and then we consult on how to take forward those policy decisi...
Gavin Brown Con
I take the cabinet secretary’s point on that, but surely to goodness this is a breach of the principle that he has just espoused.
John Swinney SNP
It is not a breach of the principle that I have espoused. Mr Brown should look at the data that is available to Parliament. I take one particular example: An...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Finance Committee in the debate. The bill provides for an end to the collection of community charge, or poll tax, deb...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lab
We should recap on where we are with the bill. We are here today because before the referendum we saw a massive increase in people registering to vote—someth...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
It probably will not come as a great surprise to learn that we will not be supporting the bill at decision time today. We do not take that decision for any g...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Would the member accept that there are other principles at play here, such as mercy?
Gavin Brown Con
Let us throw in another, then: the idea that two people both vehemently disagreed with the community charge but one of them paid it and made sacrifices to do...
John Swinney SNP
Now that, for the last financial year for which data is available, we are collecting £327,000, whereas there is £425 million outstanding, would Mr Brown care...
Gavin Brown Con
The Deputy First Minister will know as well as I do that COSLA is not enthusiastic about the bill and that the majority of councils that responded to the com...
John Swinney SNP
So why is it on the statute?
Gavin Brown Con
Mr Swinney asks why it is there, but he put that figure on page 1 of the policy memorandum. He does not like the figure, but he is the one who put it down th...
John Swinney SNP
Mr Brown has in no way addressed the fact that, in the most recent year, we are now collecting £327,000. If the trajectory carried on, it would be a lower am...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
We do not have a lot of time, Mr Brown, but I will give you an extra minute.
Gavin Brown Con
We can justify it simply because COSLA and the councils that gave evidence to the Finance Committee said that there was not a need for legislation. They are ...
John Swinney SNP
Yes, I know.
Gavin Brown Con
Mr Swinney claims to know, but he did not carry out a consultation. He said that he consulted COSLA, but the Scottish Government did not formally do so. We w...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
There are a few issues that need to be dealt with. First, the use of the £425 million figure, which was used when the discussion first took place, has been u...
Gavin Brown Con
Will the member give way?
Mark McDonald SNP
I am in my last 30 seconds.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can give you more time, if you wish.
Mark McDonald SNP
In that case, I will take Mr Brown’s intervention.
Gavin Brown Con
Will Mr McDonald acknowledge that Dundee City Council, which he quoted and which is in favour of the bill, raised in quite intelligent terms the concerns to ...
Mark McDonald SNP
I did not say at any point that those concerns were not raised. I am simply saying that, if those concerns were in fact material, I would expect to see evide...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You must begin to close now.
Mark McDonald SNP
The position was not restricted to one council leader; there was a pattern of potential pursuit through the referendum electoral registers. I think that the...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I support the bill, which feels very much like the last nail in the coffin of the poll tax, but we should remember—keeping things in perspective—that that ac...