Committee
Welfare Reform Committee 27 January 2015
27 Jan 2015 · S4 · Welfare Reform Committee
Item of business
Welfare Funds (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
It has always been a priority that welfare funds should be delivered in such a way that the dignity of welfare fund users is preserved. I agree with the committee’s suggestion that we have an opportunity to take a different approach to welfare in Scotland. Regardless of the funds available, our services will be delivered with respect and understanding. I have been considering the issue for some time, and we have been working with local authority practitioners through the series of decision-making workshops that we have been running to raise awareness of the challenges that some of the applicants to the fund face and to try to ensure that decision makers put applicants and their needs at the centre of their work. On my visits to local authorities, I have seen the efforts that local authority staff make to ensure that applicants are assisted in a timely and appropriate way. That said, I appreciate how important it is to send a clear signal about the need to treat applicants with dignity and respect. I have thought carefully about the matter for some time and I believe that it is right to give priority to that aspect of the fund by including appropriate reference to it in the bill. However, there are two similar amendments to consider. Amendment 24, which Margaret McDougall has lodged, is laudable in its intention, but my concern with it centres on the impact that it could have on local authority resources. The reality of the situation is that, as Kevin Stewart said, there is a limited budget for welfare funds, which is coming under pressure. We have to acknowledge the demands on the fund and the opportunities for savings through local authorities bulk buying goods that they can distribute through it. That is alongside the added administrative burdens that local authorities would have to bear if we accepted amendment 24. The guidance on the current interim scheme makes it clear that, if an individual has particular needs, they should be met, and I am determined that that will continue under the permanent arrangements. We will reconsider the guidance for the permanent arrangements to determine whether we can do more to ensure that, where applicants have a genuine need for a non-standard product, there is a clear understanding of how it should be provided. Therefore, I support amendment 30, which captures the essence of what stakeholders have called for without bringing additional pressure to bear on local authority budgets. I urge Margaret McDougall to seek to withdraw amendment 24, and I ask the committee to accept amendment 30.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Lab
Our second agenda item is consideration of the Welfare Funds (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I remind ministerial officials that they are not permitted to part...
The Convener
Lab
The first group of amendments is on general principles on respect for and the dignity of the applicant. Amendment 24, in the name of Margaret McDougall, is g...
Margaret McDougall (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I will move both the amendments in my name. Amendment 24 would insert, under the heading “General principles”, the following provision: “In exercising its ...
The Convener
Lab
We are just dealing with amendment 24, Margaret. Are you also speaking to amendment 30 in the name of Kevin Stewart?
Margaret McDougall
Lab
No.
The Convener
Lab
We will come to your other amendment in another group. Kevin Stewart will speak to amendment 30.
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
I share the belief that applicants should be treated with respect, and I would like to ensure that their dignity is preserved at all times. With the changes ...
The Convener
Lab
I will open it to other members to comment.
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I have a lot of sympathy with both the intention and objectives of both amendments 24 and 30, but I have a technical concern. What is the sanction if a claim...
Margaret McDougall
Lab
Can I—
The Convener
Lab
Margaret, you will get an opportunity to wind up at the end of the discussion. I will come back to you after the debate. Ken Macintosh wishes to speak.
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
Thank you very much, convener—Laughter. They seem to have turned up the microphones since I left the committee. I congratulate both Margaret McDougall and K...
The Minister for Housing and Welfare (Margaret Burgess)
SNP
It has always been a priority that welfare funds should be delivered in such a way that the dignity of welfare fund users is preserved. I agree with the comm...
The Convener
Lab
We come back to Margaret McDougall to wind up the debate and to press or withdraw her amendment 24. Margaret, it is your opportunity to answer the questions ...
Margaret McDougall
Lab
Ken Macintosh answered Annabel Goldie’s question on sanctions. The judicial review option is there, and the user can appeal, so I have no concerns in that re...
The Convener
Lab
The question is, that amendment 24 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Lab
There will be a division.
Ken Macintosh
Lab
Do I get a vote?
The Convener
Lab
No. You get the opportunity to speak, but not to vote. For McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Ag...
The Convener
Lab
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 24 disagreed to. Section 2—Use of welfare funds: assistance for short term need...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 25, in the name of Ken Macintosh, is grouped with amendments 26 and 28.
Ken Macintosh
Lab
As we know, the bill places no restrictions on the circumstances in which a local authority can decide to make an award in kind to an applicant; that is, in ...
Kevin Stewart
SNP
We heard a lot during the course of evidence taking and read a number of written observations about those issues. One of the key things that we need to put o...
Annabel Goldie
Con
I have no doubt whatsoever about the good intentions behind the amendment, but I return to my observations about amendment 24, in the name of Margaret McDoug...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As other members have done, I acknowledge the good intentions behind amendment 25. It is important to remember that the people about whom we are talking are ...
Margaret McDougall
Lab
I support Ken Macintosh’s amendment 25. I have heard the arguments against it, but choice does not have to mean more cost. Some of the bulk purchases are set...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I have listened to the arguments. On the view that choice would not cost more, I think that that flies in the face of evidence that was provided by the Conve...
Margaret Burgess
SNP
There are a number of things to take into account when considering amendments 25, 26 and 28, which would, taken together, result in limits being placed on th...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I have been both slightly encouraged and slightly discouraged by the debate. First, I am slightly concerned that I perhaps did not explain, or that people mi...
Annabel Goldie
Con
Am I allowed to intervene?