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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 28 January 2015

28 Jan 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Women Offenders
Grahame, Christine SNP Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale Watch on SPTV

I commend Alison McInnes, not just for her very measured and thoughtful speech, but because she has single-handedly kept the focus on the delivery of the recommendations of Elish Angiolini’s commission. She has not been opportunistic; she has fought her case inside and outside the Parliament, and not just in the chamber but in committee.

Alison McInnes and I are not joined at the hip, but she and I visited the 218 centre a long time ago. Its regime is one of tough love, and there are people who go on that course who regress. Mention has been made of electronic tagging. Electronic tagging on its own is not a solution, because people can lapse. The women at the 218 centre are supervised and the regime is very tough. As has been said, the facility is residential and can take only 12 people at a time. The course lasts for months, so it is intensive. It is an excellent facility.

I get a bit tetchy when I am told the blooming obvious. Some of us have known for a long time how many women offenders there are, the percentage of them who committed minor offences, the number who are on remand and the number who are victims. We have known all that for a long time. Many people in prison, not just women, are themselves victims.

I want to provide some background. On 5 August 2014, Colin McConnell and the then Cabinet Secretary for Justice came before the Justice Committee to set out their plans for Inverclyde as a more immediate solution to the pressing problems that were faced at Cornton Vale. Again, I agree with Alison McInnes—I might be destroying her career. Kate Donegan is a reformer, as is Colin McConnell; I have a lot of time for them. They might or might not have been constrained by the previous cabinet secretary, but they were certainly not developing a superprison. I object to that term, as it suggests the creation of an Alcatraz. The facility that was envisaged was to be nothing like that; it was to be more like a community setting in which people could wander about, have a sense of ordinary life and be supported. Regardless of whether the new prison was the right thing to pursue, it was never going to be an Alcatraz. Let us get away from the idea that it was to be a superprison. The idea was to allow a holistic approach to be taken to the care and management of women.

Of course we had concerns about local access, which were raised by members across the committee.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12160, in the name of Kezia Dugdale, on women offenders. I call Kezia Dugdale to speak to and move the mo...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the opportunity to devote Labour business time to female offending. It is to our collective shame that the female population of our prisons has dou...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I am very much in tune with what Kezia Dugdale is saying. A Soroptimist International report that came out recently says that 80 per cent of women offenders ...
Kezia Dugdale Lab
I absolutely concur with that. Several Labour members will touch on mental health. I would have more sympathy with Stewart Stevenson’s position, however, if ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Michael Matheson) SNP
Members are aware that I announced on Monday that the Scottish Prison Service’s plan for a women’s prison in Inverclyde will not go ahead because the plan do...
Kezia Dugdale Lab
I welcome the cabinet secretary’s remarks on evaluation. Can he tell us, in response to the question that I asked in my opening speech, whether he has examin...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Cabinet secretary—you are approaching your last 30 seconds.
Michael Matheson SNP
My officials are engaged in work on those projects. When the projects received funding two years ago, part of the agreement concerned their sustainability an...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I congratulate Labour on bringing the issue of women offenders to the chamber. I am sympathetic to the intent behind the motion, but it misses the mark with ...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
I am so pleased that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice has reflected on the plan for HMP Inverclyde and listened to the progressive voices that were raised a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We move to the open debate. We do not have a lot of time available, so I ask members to keep to speeches of six minutes. 15:48
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
Like others, I welcomed the cabinet secretary’s statement on Monday. I also welcomed his considered response to the Justice Committee on 16 December. Members...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
Like other members and the organisations that have campaigned for a rethink on the proposed female prison at Inverclyde, I welcome the cabinet secretary’s st...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I commend Alison McInnes, not just for her very measured and thoughtful speech, but because she has single-handedly kept the focus on the delivery of the rec...
Margaret Mitchell Con
Is the point not that the facility that was proposed was not in line with Elish Angiolini’s recommendations, which had been fully debated? It had been identi...
Christine Grahame SNP
None of us on the committee thought that what was proposed was perfect, but I do not recall anyone opposing it aggressively. We had huge reservations about l...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I congratulate the cabinet secretary on taking the decision not to go ahead with the proposed women’s prison in Inverclyde. We need a radical change in how w...
Roderick Campbell SNP
The member may recall that Dame Elish Angiolini, in giving evidence on child impact assessments, said: “I do not believe that any judge who sentenced withou...
Mary Fee Lab
I take on board that point. However, I am trying to make the point that the child and family impact assessment should be at the front and centre of decision ...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I congratulate Kezia Dugdale on what was basically a broadly drawn and generally well-argued case. I agree on the broad thrust and disagree on the detail—tha...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I have a couple of facts to share. The previous numeracy survey, which was carried out in 2013, says that 22 per cent of women had numeracy problems, 11 per ...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
I am grateful to the member for that. I am more familiar with the circumstances of male prisoners, because the sex offenders unit used to be in my constituen...
Christina McKelvie (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) SNP
A famous female offender said: “Who were the women who, day by day, trod the very stones on which my feet now stood ... ? How and why had they broken the la...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
When the Angiolini report was published, the then justice secretary, Kenny MacAskill, called it a “compelling vision for the future.” The centrepiece of th...
Christina McKelvie SNP
Like me, the member will know that three quarters of the women who are sent to jail receive sentences of six months or less. In 2008, the McLeish commission ...
Jayne Baxter Lab
Yes, to put it briefly. Statistics show that 70 per cent of women offenders who receive a prison sentence of three months or less are reconvicted of an offe...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
You should draw to a close, please.
Jayne Baxter Lab
On a related topic, the Scottish sentencing council is an important development. It will provide an opportunity for a wider range of voices to be heard in th...
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this debate on women offenders and how we can best deal with that problem. This is my first speech as a member of the Justice Commit...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I begin as I do in almost all the speeches that I make in the chamber by praising the Government for the things that it is doing right, in particular the cou...