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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 07 May 2014

07 May 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Wealth and Income Inequality

Green politics begins with a recognition that the ecological and social crises that we face both stem from the same broken economic system, so the Green Party’s choice of topics for debate seek to reflect that balance.

We propose a motion on wealth and pay inequality at a time of increasing global debate about the subject. Over recent years, those debates have been informed by “The Spirit Level”, which was written by Wilkinson and Pickett; by the work of the First Minister’s favourite Nobel laureate, Joseph Stiglitz; and by the more recent work of Thomas Piketty.

In Scotland, the work of organisations such as Oxfam, the Carnegie UK Trust, the Jimmy Reid Foundation and the Scottish Trades Union Congress has also helped to develop the idea of an economy in which not just how much economic growth is generated but how fairly that is shared is measured. Just this week, we have seen work from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, as well as research published by the Sunday Herald at the weekend, that further the debate in the Scottish context.

It is going to be difficult to have the debate without the referendum context creeping in. Members on both sides of the referendum debate will have their own views: some will say that the Scottish Government can and must do more now, whereas others will say that we need the full powers of independence. The motion deliberately does not seek to get into that. Members on all sides know the Green position and why I will be voting yes, but in this debate our purpose is to seek agreement on the objective goal of reducing inequality in wealth and income so that, no matter which decision the Scottish people make, none of us can walk away from that agreement.

Neither the Labour amendment nor the Scottish National Party amendment seeks to remove most of the commitments in the motion on progressive and redistributive taxation, on decent wages instead of subsidised poverty pay and on the need to address high pay as well as low pay. I am glad that neither of the two large parties is seeking to remove those commitments.

The debate on inequality very often focuses on safety-net policies, such as benefits and the minimum and living wages. Let us recognise that safety nets can all too easily develop holes. The creation of a legal minimum wage was a really important step; the advancement of a living wage is a better one. However, employers will find ways to exploit people by using tactics such as zero-hours contracts or the outsourcing of low-wage work to other companies to allow them to claim the public credit for paying the living wage to their direct employees while exploiting the labour of people in poverty. Even this Parliament has been in that position, despite the political will of the majority of its members.

The welfare system is supposed to be another safety net, but it is time to recognise just what the UK’s welfare state has become. It not only allows poverty to continue but takes people who are already living with the stress of that poverty and heaps further stress on them. The system can be demeaning, humiliating and patronising, and all too often it seems to have been designed that way.

That attitude goes deeper than specific measures such as the vicious bedroom tax that we have already discussed this afternoon—it is also about values. For years now, divisive rhetoric such as “benefit cheats”, “scroungers v strivers” and that old favourite “hard-working families” has been used by political and media voices alike to undermine the human empathy that a welfare state depends on and to present the false notion that there are those who contribute and those who only take. The reality is that every single one of us depends on a successful welfare state and, apart from the hoarders and tax dodgers among the super-rich, we all contribute as well. As a result, this debate is not just about whether the welfare system is run by an independent Scotland, a devolved Scottish Government or the United Kingdom Government, but about the urgent need to win again, from first principles, the argument for a welfare state and a society in which we are looked after and in which everyone’s dignity matters.

We need more than just a safety-net agenda; after all, we cannot close the gap between rich and poor without addressing both sides of it—high pay as well as low pay. That said, pay levels matter not just at the top and the bottom but across the whole population. We remain, by European Union standards, a very low-wage economy, with half of working Scots earning less than £21,000 a year, and progressive taxation has to be part of the picture in relation to income and wealth taxes.

We also need to examine the structure of the economy. Especially in the period of low growth that many expect over the coming years and perhaps decades, the risk is that wages stagnate while investment by the richest continues to pay back for them. If that happens, wealth will continue to accumulate in the hands of those who are already the wealthiest and we will never achieve the fairer, more equal, healthier and happier society that we should be seeking. Moreover, if we do not close the gap between rich and poor, we will not achieve the political consent needed for a welfare system that deserves the name—in other words, one that is focused on human welfare instead of one that bullies people into low-wage work.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09926, in the name of Patrick Harvie. 16:16
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Green politics begins with a recognition that the ecological and social crises that we face both stem from the same broken economic system, so the Green Part...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
Does the member not acknowledge that the spend on welfare is almost £200 billion out of a budget of about £670 billion, and that it accounts for far more exp...
Patrick Harvie Green
I think that it is far more important than more or less anything else we spend money on to ensure that human dignity is protected and that all people are abl...
The Minister for Housing and Welfare (Margaret Burgess) SNP
There is not a lot in what Patrick Harvie has said that I would disagree with. All of us in the Parliament are concerned about the growing gap between the ri...
Gavin Brown Con
Income tax is clearly important in all of this. What changes would the minister’s Government make to income tax were we to become independent?
Margaret Burgess SNP
There has been lots of evidence about that. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that one way to define a tax system is to base it on principle. The bes...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the minister give way?
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
Will the minister take an intervention?
Margaret Burgess SNP
I give way to John Finnie.
John Finnie Ind
We all have a lot in common on this subject. To what extent does the minister believe that cutting corporation tax and giving breaks to firms such as Amazon ...
Margaret Burgess SNP
That will help because it will make us competitive and get more than 27,000 additional jobs into Scotland, and because we support the living wage and have a ...
Drew Smith Lab
Will the minister give way?
Margaret Burgess SNP
I am sorry; I have taken two interventions already. We have introduced the living wage across the public services that we are directly responsible for. We a...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Not from a Labour Government.
Margaret Burgess SNP
We do not have a Labour Government and, given how Labour is behaving, we are unlikely to get one. In addition, the Deputy First Minister has announced propo...
Drew Smith Lab
Will the minister give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
The minister is in her last 20 seconds.
Margaret Burgess SNP
It is clear—Patrick Harvie is right—that the welfare system is broken and cannot work for Scotland. I hear that I am in my last 20 minutes—Interruption. I m...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the opportunity to debate wealth and income inequality and I thank Patrick Harvie for bringing the subject to the chamber. I welcome very much the ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie Lab
No. We have heard enough from the SNP. There is no guarantee that changing the constitution would deliver the progressive change that would ensure a fairer ...
Margaret Burgess SNP
Jackie Baillie is well aware that we are doing everything that we legally can and that we, as a Government, support the living wage.
Jackie Baillie Lab
That did not sound like a “yes” to me. The SNP is again setting its face against that policy. The minister’s amendment removes the final sentence of the Gre...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
It will have come as no surprise to the Green Party that we are not going to support its motion and that our amendment is of a completely different flavour. ...
Patrick Harvie Green
I am saying it now.
Gavin Brown Con
Patrick Harvie must, as must everyone in the chamber, accept the basic facts about what is spent on the welfare system in the UK. I put the statistics to him...
Annabelle Ewing (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) SNP
Can Gavin Brown clarify what is spent on pensions?
Gavin Brown Con
As Annabelle Ewing probably knows, something in the region of about 46 per cent of the £200 billion figure that I gave is related to pensions, which leaves m...
Patrick Harvie Green
I am grateful to Mr Brown. I point out to him that the figure of £100 million that he has arrived at is not exactly eye-watering. It is what we would spend o...