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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 07 May 2014

07 May 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Energy and Climate Change
Biagi, Marco SNP Edinburgh Central Watch on SPTV

To members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, this is a very familiar topic, although we are used to seeing Murdo Fraser curb his great enthusiasm so as to retain convener-like composure. For his and everybody else’s sake, I am glad that he had the chance to let loose today.

The UK Government’s headlong rush to pepper rural England with unconventional gas sites is quite remarkable, not just because of the contrast with the more cautious and evidence-based approach of the Scottish Government but because it comes from a party that, in past manifestos, held local opposition to be so sacrosanct that it proposed a moratorium on onshore wind farms. Take the plans, roll on a few years and we can easily foresee a point at which the well-to-do villagers march instead against gas wells, and wind farm protests are last decade. We are not talking about the big sky country of the United States, where there is a hundred miles between homes and no communities in between—here, every drilling site has someone for a neighbour.

There might be communities that would welcome unconventional gas—doubtless, there are communities that would, on balance, welcome a large-scale return to opencast coal mining, despite all the environmental difficulties that it would cause. However, if such communities exist today with arms outstretched for shale gas, I do not see them. The updating of planning policy will strengthen the hand of communities, whatever their view, and it is to be enthusiastically welcomed.

For me, the motion is narrowly and perhaps a little excessively focused on one aspect of fossil fuel extraction when, in truth, the instinct of the proposer is, I think, to object to it in all its aspects. We live in a nation that is committed to reductions in fossil fuel use and in a world that should be. For some, that is an inconvenient truth but, for us, it is a legislative reality.

Recently, I participated in a science festival event in which an audience member asked the panel what a Scottish energy mix in the 2020s would be. To the surprise of the questioner, all of us on the panel, including Dr David Toke, renewables expert and consultant for the European Greens, agreed on the need to use gas as a step-down fuel. As we have heard, per unit, gas releases less carbon than coal and even less with carbon capture and storage. Although Scotland will generate enough renewable electricity to meet our annual demand by 2020, gas is needed for the peaks and troughs, because it can be dialled up and down more flexibly than nuclear or any other competitor. In heating, gas will continue to be with us for some time to come.

Both of those issues have to be—and are being—taken into account in our world-leading emissions trajectory. Against that must be held the danger of drawing investment away from renewables, as nuclear has unquestionably done south of the border, as well as the carbon costs of extraction, which are higher the more unconventional the method, and the question of safety in an industry in which competing claims have left doubts that thus far have not reassured those who would see fracking next door.

There should be two lenses for considering unconventional gas. The first is that individuals should have the right to live in communities that are clean and safe and that are in control of their own future, which is a principle that I hold to whether the community is local, national or supranational. The second is the need for us as a society to reduce overall carbon emissions. Those should be the evidence tests not just for unconventional gas but for all energy sources, including renewables. Most people welcome our tremendous progress in that field, but we have to encourage projects in which communities are not just the neighbours but the principal initiators, owners and benefactors of the energy that is generated from their surroundings.

15:54

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09927, in the name of Alison Johnstone, on energy and climate change. 15:11
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) Green
It is generally agreed that our energy policy should deliver three things: a secure supply; energy at an affordable cost; and energy that is low in climate-c...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney) SNP
I welcome the debate that the Green Party has initiated today on energy and climate change. It provides an opportunity for us to consider the range of measur...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Mr Swinney knows that I agree with him on the importance of the oil and gas sector. Can he enlighten us as to when he intends to bring forward his revised es...
John Swinney SNP
I told Parliament that I would bring those forward in the coming weeks and that is exactly what I intend to do to assist the debate. While we recognise the ...
Claudia Beamish (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
In view of recent announcements by electricity companies about the offshore renewables sector, does the cabinet secretary share any of my concerns about how ...
John Swinney SNP
I certainly do not think that the uncertainty that has been created by the electricity market reform process undertaken by the UK Government has helped inves...
Alison Johnstone Green
Although it may be possible to prove that extraction is safe, it simply will not be possible to prove that burning the fuel that is extracted is safe. Does t...
John Swinney SNP
The key point that I would make to Alison Johnstone is that all these issues must be considered within our framework to reduce climate change. I have just co...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
I advise members that there is no extra time available this afternoon, so interventions should be contained within speeches. 15:28
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I start by congratulating Alison Johnstone on bringing the debate to the chamber, because it is an important and current policy issue that, until now, we hav...
Alison Johnstone Green
Is Iain Gray aware that, in areas where unconventional gas extraction occurs, coal-bed methane extraction leads to hydraulic fracturing in 40 per cent of cases?
Iain Gray Lab
They are two different processes, as Ms Johnstone herself pointed out when she complained that one can move easily to the other in the regulatory framework. ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I thank the Scottish Greens for giving us the opportunity this afternoon to debate the extraction of unconventional gas throughout Scotland. I commend Alison...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Murdo Fraser Con
No, thank you. When we actually look at public opinion, we see that not everyone is buying that nonsense. According the latest DECC public opinion tracker, ...
Alison Johnstone Green
Will the member give way?
Murdo Fraser Con
No, I need to make some progress. We should remember that there is nothing new about fracking for shale gas and extracting coal seam gas in Scotland. Back i...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We come to the open debate. We are very tight for time, with speeches of a maximum of four minutes. 15:38
Rob Gibson (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) SNP
As it says in the Scottish National Party amendment, “Scotland has a rich diversity of energy sources including a very successful oil and gas sector and gr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that you must close now.
Rob Gibson SNP
A recent poll for DECC showed that 50 per cent of Tories would rather live near a wind farm than have fracking in their back yard. Many more people across Sc...
Margaret McDougall (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As stated in Labour’s amendment, Scotland needs a robust and balanced energy policy that strives to match our energy needs with our climate change and carbon...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the Scottish Government’s precautionary approach to hydraulic fracturing and unconventional gas extraction and, therefore, I have some sympathy—but...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
Will Mike MacKenzie take an intervention?
Mike MacKenzie SNP
No—I am sorry but I am short of time. For instance, I was disappointed to hear Patrick Harvie dismiss in a recent debate the opportunity presented by carbon...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Will Mike Mackenzie give way?
Mike MacKenzie SNP
No, I am not taking interventions because I am short of time. Interruption. Sorry—another occasion, Mr Harvie. In acquiring the expertise to develop world-...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) SNP
To members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, this is a very familiar topic, although we are used to seeing Murdo Fraser curb his great enthusiasm...
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I am pleased to close the debate for the Scottish Conservatives. A number of members have rightly referred, as does our amendment, to the importance of ener...