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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 August 2014

19 Aug 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill
Mason, John SNP Glasgow Shettleston Watch on SPTV

I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate. Taxation may not be everyone’s most exciting topic, but I find it extremely interesting, and the bill is particularly significant, as it is to become the underpinning legislation as we move forward, whatever the constitutional settlement.

As I said when I spoke on the subject in May, one of the problems of UK tax legislation has been its emphasis on the letter of the law as against the spirit or intention of the law. As a result, we have had situations in which the wider public has been clear that tax should have been paid but some taxpayers have avoided tax quite artificially. That has been referred to already.

That is particularly galling for ordinary members of the public who, whether employed, self-employed or retired, are pretty strictly regulated by the various tax authorities. Therefore, I welcome the more principles-based approach in the legislation. I hope that that approach will also be taken in future Scottish tax bills.

On the subject of principles, like others, I am happy to welcome the emphasis on Adam Smith’s maxims, including, in particular, the one that says that taxes should be proportionate to the ability to pay. In the committee, we discussed the intricacies of that approach, and the differences between proportionate and proportional. I admit that those differences have now escaped me. However, it is clear that there are some taxes, such as council tax, that are not really linked to the ability to pay, except in the loosest possible sense. I hope, as we move forward, we can remember that principle, and that new and amended taxes will be more proportionate.

The issue of certainty has come up many times as we consider the bill. That is one of Adam Smith’s maxims that we all support. However, I continue to think that the demand for certainty can sometimes be a smokescreen and can mean only more certainty for those who want to avoid paying tax. Therefore, I support the cabinet secretary’s insistence that we stick to a principles-based approach, including having a wider general anti-avoidance rule than seems to exist in the UK.

Only two relatively small taxes are being fully devolved, while income tax is not really being devolved at all, as we will have only partial control over one aspect of it. That could, frankly, give us the worst of both worlds, with an already complex UK income tax system becoming more complex and therefore more expensive to operate. That is the downside of devolution and, in particular, of sharing a tax rather than devolving it.

Another factor in this is the block-grant adjustment that Michael McMahon referred to. It is disappointing that, having promised to devolve those two taxes, it now seems that Westminster is attempting to backtrack and keep its hands on as much of them as it possibly can. That does not bode well for the vague assertion that more tax powers might—or may; or could; or should possibly, at some stage, given the right circumstances and the right Government at Westminster, and on the assumption that the UK does not leave the EU and does not go completely bankrupt—be devolved in the event of a no vote.

However, I prefer to be optimistic and look forward to our taking control of the whole range of taxes, as normal countries do. We will probably have to start off by modifying the UK system but, at some stage, we will have the challenging opportunity of writing our own legislation for those major taxes. I look forward to that exercise.

The great thing about what we are doing today is that we are setting out a direction of travel. We want to do things our way, in a way that fits Scotland’s needs. The bill is a good start, and I whole-heartedly support its approval.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-10822, in the name of John Swinney, on the Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill. 15:44
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney) SNP
The Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill has two main purposes. First, it will establish revenue Scotland as the tax authority responsible for the collection...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
In the stage 1 debate, I quoted Albert Einstein, as I do whenever I am given the opportunity. Einstein said: “The hardest thing in the world to understand i...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
It has been interesting and rewarding to be involved with the bill. I am extremely grateful to Professor Gavin McEwen, who gave expert advice to the Finance ...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I thank the people who have been involved in the bill’s progress: the members of the Finance Committee; committee clerks; the committee’s adviser, Professor ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Microphone, Mr Gibson.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I apologise.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
That is much better. We can hear you now.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I can see how much attention members have been paying to my speech, given that I am about a third of the way through and I have only just realised that they ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Everyone was just enjoying you being quiet.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
That is a great vote of confidence. Perhaps I should sit down now. Under the bill, the relationship between the tax authority and taxpayers will be clarifie...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Lab
According to Denis Healey, “The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall.” The former chancellor was absolutely r...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD
I am grateful to the committee, the advisers, the clerks and the Government officials for their detailed work over a long time. It is striking that this aft...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate. Taxation may not be everyone’s most exciting topic, but I find it extremely interesting, and the bill is ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
That brings us to the closing speeches. I call Gavin Brown. 16:23
Gavin Brown Con
If that was John Mason being optimistic about the tax system, I hope that I am not here on the day when he is pessimistic. Quite rightly, this has been a br...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
Iain Gray began his speech by quoting Einstein, to the effect that “The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.” To be perfectly honest...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I remind Parliament that our debates this afternoon are on a follow-on basis and therefore I trust that all members will be in the chamber for the next debat...
John Swinney SNP
Iain Gray said that today marked the conclusion of the trilogy of bills. That got me thinking. There is Peter May, that great Scots author, responsible for t...
Iain Gray Lab
In the spirit of the famous game “Scissors, paper, stone”, the fact is that Peter May’s product will eventually end up in landfill and be subject to the land...
John Swinney SNP
It will not for a long time, I hope. Today’s debate has been a welcome conclusion to a really good parliamentary process. I thank the bill team for their wo...