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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 August 2014

19 Aug 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill
Rennie, Willie LD Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I am grateful to the committee, the advisers, the clerks and the Government officials for their detailed work over a long time.

It is striking that this afternoon’s debate contrasts remarkably with the debates on the bill that we had a few months ago. It also contrasts with debates earlier this afternoon, when we were all heated. I felt the early adrenaline rush evaporate as this debate commenced.

The bill shows the effectiveness and value of devolution and the effectiveness of the Parliament. It is a direct consequence of the Scotland Act 2012. It is also a precursor to what I want to see: more powers being transferred to the Parliament here at Holyrood—perhaps only if there is a vote next month.

The bill also sets an important foundation for the expansion that I want of the Parliament’s powers on income tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax and many other areas so that the Parliament raises the majority of the money that it spends. I also presume that, for SNP members, it sets a foundation for independence.

When the bill and revenue Scotland were first proposed, the aspiration was set out to save significant sums of money—I think that £250 million was mentioned—because we would have a much simpler, more flexible, more agile system of tax collection in comparison with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Those ambitions will be tested on the two relatively small taxes for which we will be responsible initially. Everybody will watch closely to ensure that those bold ambitions are met, even if it is in a minor way.

As Iain Gray eloquently pointed out, the 450 or so amendments that have been made to the bill have revealed that raising tax is not a simple business. The people on the other side who want to avoid tax are smart and will spend a lot of time and money trying to avoid it. Therefore, we will have to work extremely hard and be extremely agile to ensure that we are as effective as, if not more effective than, HMRC.

HMRC has made some progress in recent years. It has managed to make 40 changes in tax law since 2010 and many of the loopholes have been closed. However, it is an on-going process to ensure that those who want to avoid tax are caught and make their contribution. Ultimately, we want public services to be properly and adequately funded to ensure that we get the services that we deserve and need.

I have great hopes for the bill. It is a great piece of work. I hope that it will be as effective as those who proposed it initially claimed that it would be.

With that, I pledge my party’s support.

16:18

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-10822, in the name of John Swinney, on the Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill. 15:44
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney) SNP
The Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill has two main purposes. First, it will establish revenue Scotland as the tax authority responsible for the collection...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
In the stage 1 debate, I quoted Albert Einstein, as I do whenever I am given the opportunity. Einstein said: “The hardest thing in the world to understand i...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
It has been interesting and rewarding to be involved with the bill. I am extremely grateful to Professor Gavin McEwen, who gave expert advice to the Finance ...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I thank the people who have been involved in the bill’s progress: the members of the Finance Committee; committee clerks; the committee’s adviser, Professor ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Microphone, Mr Gibson.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I apologise.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
That is much better. We can hear you now.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I can see how much attention members have been paying to my speech, given that I am about a third of the way through and I have only just realised that they ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Everyone was just enjoying you being quiet.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
That is a great vote of confidence. Perhaps I should sit down now. Under the bill, the relationship between the tax authority and taxpayers will be clarifie...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Lab
According to Denis Healey, “The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall.” The former chancellor was absolutely r...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD
I am grateful to the committee, the advisers, the clerks and the Government officials for their detailed work over a long time. It is striking that this aft...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate. Taxation may not be everyone’s most exciting topic, but I find it extremely interesting, and the bill is ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
That brings us to the closing speeches. I call Gavin Brown. 16:23
Gavin Brown Con
If that was John Mason being optimistic about the tax system, I hope that I am not here on the day when he is pessimistic. Quite rightly, this has been a br...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
Iain Gray began his speech by quoting Einstein, to the effect that “The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.” To be perfectly honest...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I remind Parliament that our debates this afternoon are on a follow-on basis and therefore I trust that all members will be in the chamber for the next debat...
John Swinney SNP
Iain Gray said that today marked the conclusion of the trilogy of bills. That got me thinking. There is Peter May, that great Scots author, responsible for t...
Iain Gray Lab
In the spirit of the famous game “Scissors, paper, stone”, the fact is that Peter May’s product will eventually end up in landfill and be subject to the land...
John Swinney SNP
It will not for a long time, I hope. Today’s debate has been a welcome conclusion to a really good parliamentary process. I thank the bill team for their wo...