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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 August 2014

19 Aug 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill
McMahon, Michael Lab Uddingston and Bellshill Watch on SPTV

According to Denis Healey,

“The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall.”

The former chancellor was absolutely right because, although tax avoidance is simply clever financial planning, tax evasion is illegal. It is understandable that, at a time when high-profile millionaire celebrities and multinational companies have been highlighted, the focus of deliberations on taxation is on that issue. It has become apparent that the public care more deeply than ever that we do not have a tax system that permits freeloaders.

The Scottish Government has got the balance just about right in legislating on how revenue Scotland will be tasked with dealing with avoidance and evasion within its responsibilities. There is flexibility in the rules but enough clarity to ensure that the rules are firm enough to follow. The amendments that the cabinet secretary has made and accepted have helped to clarify some areas in which there was originally some doubt. We had to get it right, because tax avoidance could have serious implications for business as a whole. There could also be implications for the public perception of our tax system. The system must maintain public confidence, and the perception that others can avoid their responsibilities can damage that confidence.

The clear view of the tax professionals who gave evidence to the Finance Committee was that the level of public scrutiny 10 years ago was much less than it is now. We heard that tax avoidance is not necessarily any greater than it was in years gone by, but that the greater public awareness of all the issues means that, when certain individuals or companies do not contribute their fair share to the public purse, there is a heightened sense of outrage. Those concerns are justified, which is why, when avoidance occurs, we have to make it easier to take action. I believe that the bill will do that.

In relation to the landfill tax, any avoidance could create economic distortions, as a business could seek a competitive advantage by acting illegally to avoid paying tax. I have visited the new Scottish Environment Protection Agency premises at the Maxim Park development at Eurocentral in my constituency and was pleased to meet the dedicated team of investigators who have been tasked with pursuing companies that, by many and varied means, seek to avoid paying landfill tax. That effort is already bearing fruit and I am confident that, increasingly, we will clamp down on those who try to dodge their responsibilities.

I therefore have no hesitation in endorsing the bill and I congratulate the cabinet secretary on guiding it so effectively to this point. I also thank the convener of and adviser to the Finance Committee for their efforts to ensure that this technical and complex bill passed through the parliamentary process as smoothly as possible.

From an exchange that I had with the cabinet secretary earlier this afternoon, I know that he gets concerned when I break the consensus, so I will not let him down. I will ask a question that has occurred to me. This bill and the two others that resulted from the further devolution of tax powers under the Scotland Act 2012 sailed through the legislative process on a sea of good will and widespread agreement. When the cabinet secretary came to the Finance Committee last week, his exasperation was evident that closure on the technical details of the block grant adjustment that is required under the new tax laws has not yet been achieved.

If the cabinet secretary cannot conclude in 18 months the process for a system that covers only 1.7 per cent of Scotland’s income, with all the parties involved in total agreement on its desirability and efficacy, how on earth does he expect to negotiate, agree and deliver an entire transfer of powers, set up and conclude applications for membership of NATO, the European Union and other bodies and set up a currency union all within 18 months of a yes vote in September? I do not expect the cabinet secretary to answer that, or to have to answer it, because it is a purely hypothetical question.

I thank him for his efforts in bringing the devolved taxes to fruition and I look forward to seeing how revenue Scotland uses the powers that have been given to it to the betterment of our system of taxation in Scotland.

16:15

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-10822, in the name of John Swinney, on the Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill. 15:44
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney) SNP
The Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill has two main purposes. First, it will establish revenue Scotland as the tax authority responsible for the collection...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
In the stage 1 debate, I quoted Albert Einstein, as I do whenever I am given the opportunity. Einstein said: “The hardest thing in the world to understand i...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
It has been interesting and rewarding to be involved with the bill. I am extremely grateful to Professor Gavin McEwen, who gave expert advice to the Finance ...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I thank the people who have been involved in the bill’s progress: the members of the Finance Committee; committee clerks; the committee’s adviser, Professor ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Microphone, Mr Gibson.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I apologise.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
That is much better. We can hear you now.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I can see how much attention members have been paying to my speech, given that I am about a third of the way through and I have only just realised that they ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Everyone was just enjoying you being quiet.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
That is a great vote of confidence. Perhaps I should sit down now. Under the bill, the relationship between the tax authority and taxpayers will be clarifie...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Lab
According to Denis Healey, “The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall.” The former chancellor was absolutely r...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD
I am grateful to the committee, the advisers, the clerks and the Government officials for their detailed work over a long time. It is striking that this aft...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate. Taxation may not be everyone’s most exciting topic, but I find it extremely interesting, and the bill is ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
That brings us to the closing speeches. I call Gavin Brown. 16:23
Gavin Brown Con
If that was John Mason being optimistic about the tax system, I hope that I am not here on the day when he is pessimistic. Quite rightly, this has been a br...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
Iain Gray began his speech by quoting Einstein, to the effect that “The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.” To be perfectly honest...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I remind Parliament that our debates this afternoon are on a follow-on basis and therefore I trust that all members will be in the chamber for the next debat...
John Swinney SNP
Iain Gray said that today marked the conclusion of the trilogy of bills. That got me thinking. There is Peter May, that great Scots author, responsible for t...
Iain Gray Lab
In the spirit of the famous game “Scissors, paper, stone”, the fact is that Peter May’s product will eventually end up in landfill and be subject to the land...
John Swinney SNP
It will not for a long time, I hope. Today’s debate has been a welcome conclusion to a really good parliamentary process. I thank the bill team for their wo...