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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 21 May 2014

21 May 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Courts Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Chisholm, Malcolm Lab Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

I am on the Finance Committee, which looked at the bill’s financial memorandum. It seems to me that there are three major mysteries and a few minor mysteries about it.

First, there will be a loss of fee income, but we are told that it will have a negligible effect. Secondly, there will be an increase in the sheriff court workload, but again, there will be a negligible effect from that. Thirdly, there will be a big reduction in the legal aid budget, but for no obvious reason.

On fee income, we are told in paragraph 75 of the financial memorandum that 80 per cent of personal injury cases will go to the sheriff court. The Association of Personal Injury Lawyers thinks that the figure will be higher than that, at 96 per cent. If we stick with the figure of 80 per cent, in accordance with a freedom of information request by the association it seems that £1.1 million will be lost in fee income through that change, because much less is charged in the sheriff court than is charged in the Court of Session. The Finance Committee wanted to know whether the result of that would be an overall increase in court fees. Obviously, there would be concerns about that.

The Finance Committee also felt that there is a mystery about the increase in sheriff court workload. The bill team told us that there would be no increase in sitting days at the sheriff court, but the intention behind creating the £150,000 threshold, of course, is to remove a substantial part of the Court of Session’s business. Therefore, there seems to be a contradiction.

Margaret Mitchell described in great detail the pressure that the sheriff court is already under: it is overcrowded, there are closures to come and we are told that cases that are expected to last for four days are rarely heard on consecutive days. In addition, the reduction in the number of cases, which the cabinet secretary told us about today, does not correspond to the amount of judicial time spent. The Association of Personal Injury Lawyers made the point that the 36 per cent reduction in the number of cases that has been flagged up by the Government is mainly from debt or repossession cases that are usually undefended.

Many complex cases will transfer to the Court of Session. I was told very recently of two medical negligence cases in the Court of Session that have two judges and three to five weeks to be heard. That kind of case will transfer to the Court of Session. There is therefore a great mystery about the workload of the Court of Session and how that will be managed.

The other mystery, of course, is to do with the legal aid savings. We were told that a lot of that is to come from a 50 per cent reduction in use of counsel, but the cabinet secretary said today that it is very rare that sanction for counsel is refused in the sheriff court. He was very reassuring about concerns that were raised by, for example, Clydeside Action on Asbestos and by people in my constituency who have claims for asbestos harm. He said that they would get counsel, but a lot of the savings from the legal aid budget are because of cases not having counsel any more. Over and above that, of course, is the fact that most costs are recovered and are not in any case put against the legal aid budget. There is therefore a great mystery around the savings on the legal aid budget, and the committee was very concerned about the fact that the bill team could not answer our questions about that.

I think that I have not very long left.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-10090, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the Courts Reform (Scotland) Bill. I will allow a few momen...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
I call Kenny MacAskill to speak to and move the motion in the name of Roseanna Cunningham. Cabinet secretary, you have a maximum of 10 minutes but less would...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
I am delighted to open this stage 1 debate on the Courts Reform (Scotland) Bill. I record my thanks to the Justice Committee for its consideration of the bil...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Lab
The cabinet secretary mentioned asbestos cases. Over the years, he and others in the Parliament have done a lot of work for asbestos victims and their famili...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
That is a fair point. It is important to put on record that the whole purpose of Lord Gill’s review is to ensure that we get access to justice because the sy...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you. I advise members that we are very tight for time. I call Christine Grahame to speak on behalf of the Justice Committee. You have a maximum of seve...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Justice Committee on this significant and complex bill, which, thankfully, has been without huge controve...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
On behalf of the Labour members of the Justice Committee, I thank the clerks, and all the witnesses who gave evidence to the committee. I assure the Scottis...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Could the member advise whether the committee sought views on the concerns that have been raised, certainly in my constituency, about the removal of honorary...
Elaine Murray Lab
That was part of the committee’s report—we considered that issue.
Christine Grahame SNP
It was in my speech but I had to cut it out because my time was cut.
Elaine Murray Lab
Congestion in the sheriff courts is likely therefore to persist for some time. We are concerned that if the requirement for corroboration is abolished, as th...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The bill represents years of endeavour by the Scottish civil courts review, which Lord President Gill led, and will implement overdue reforms to Scotland’s c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We turn to the open debate. We are very tight for time. Speeches will be a maximum of four minutes. 16:52
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
This is an important debate and I wish that we had more time for it. Yesterday, as the convener said, the committee went up town for a breath of fresh air....
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you very much. I am afraid that every second counts in the debate. Graeme Pearson, you have four minutes. 16:56
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Thank you for allowing me to contribute this afternoon, Presiding Officer. I am pleased that section 69 of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 has...
Christine Grahame SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Graeme Pearson Lab
I am sorry—I am out of time. The advocate’s role in the process is important. The dean of the Faculty of Advocates raised an important issue about the foren...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you. I am afraid that if members go over time by a few seconds, we will lose some members from the debate. 17:00
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I refer members to my entry in the register of interests as a member of the Faculty of Advocates. There is, as the convener of the Justice Committee suggest...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Following Lord Gill’s review of the civil courts, he described the existing system as “failing to deliver justice ... expeditiously, economically or efficie...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I thank the previous speakers for their comprehensive speeches. In fact, they were so comprehensive that they have left with me with very little to add, but ...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
There is general support for court reform. Yes, we want to modernise Scottish courts; yes, we want to make the system more efficient; and yes, we want it to ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
I feel that I am something of an interloper in this debate, as I was not on the Justice Committee through the process, but the subject is fascinating and I w...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I am on the Finance Committee, which looked at the bill’s financial memorandum. It seems to me that there are three major mysteries and a few minor mysteries...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
Twenty seconds.
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
I will make three minor points. It was flagged up that there will be substantial costs in creating a new training programme for specialist sheriffs, that the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Many thanks. 17:22
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
It is a welcome focus for the Justice Committee to be looking at civil rather than criminal matters. Like my colleagues, I support the principles of the bill...