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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 05 November 2014

05 Nov 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Living Wage
Scanlon, Mary Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

Many in the media have been saying that politics in Scotland is changing; after listening to the opening speeches, I think that that much is clear. We have had the Labour Party advising Scottish National Party candidates on their leadership bids and the Labour Party praising the Tory Boris Johnson. We also have the Conservative Party agreeing with the Labour Party’s motion and the SNP amendment. In fact, I had to read the motion and the amendment a few times; when I found myself agreeing with most of what they said, I went along the corridor to my friend Alex Johnstone. I had assumed that I would get a huge amount of disagreement, but even he agreed with most of the motion and the amendment. I hope, therefore, that in my five minutes I will be a bit more consensual than the previous two speakers.

I thank the Labour Party very much for bringing to the chamber this debate on the living wage, and we commend the contribution that the Scottish living wage campaign has made to the lives of thousands of individuals and families in Scotland. We, too, welcome the rise in the living wage to £7.85 per hour from April next year.

However, I want to return to a point that I have been raising since about May 1999 about the Government’s subcontracting to the care home and childcare sectors. After all, whenever we in this Parliament talk about low wages, we tend to talk about care workers and childcare workers. For too long now, people have been highlighting the low pay in these sectors, and I think that, alongside that, there is a lack of valuing the people who work in them.

At a meeting that I attended prior to the referendum, I heard that private nursery providers can be paid as low as £2.71 per hour per child to provide childcare. The person who made that point came from Aberdeen and was highlighting the difficulties in recruiting and retaining staff, not just because of oil jobs but because they themselves were limited in the amount that they could pay. I thought that that was untrue, so I asked the Scottish Parliament information centre for a briefing.

According to SPICe, the National Day Nurseries Association Scotland has stated that

“nurseries are making a big loss on local authority funded childcare places, losing on average £1,032 per child, per year on funded places for three and four-year-olds”

and

“there is currently not a level playing field on per child cost allocations between public and private provision.”

In her speech, the cabinet secretary said that where the SNP has power to act it will act. I simply highlight that because the National Day Nurseries Association Scotland went on to say:

“Inadequate funding for nursery partner providers for three and four year old places is getting worse and varies widely across the 32 local authorities - the lowest rate recorded being £2.71 per hour per child. The knock on effect is a rise in the cost of parent paid for hours as nurseries are forced to make up the losses they incur”.

I understand that the costings for the current expansion of pre-school provision to 600 hours include an assumption, based on a particular recommendation, that partner providers will be paid £4.09 per child per hour.

As well as that sector, I want to highlight the situation in the care home sector. I saw Richard Simpson nodding when I mentioned the issue earlier—I know that he, too, has raised it in the past. The independent and voluntary care home sector is limited in the amount that it can pay care workers because of the funding that it gets from Government. When, some months ago, I made a freedom of information request, I found that many councils still fund council care home places at a significantly higher rate than they pay the independent and voluntary sector. Some in the independent sector received about £480 per person per week, while the figure for a council care home place was over £800.

My point is that we can all agree that it is right to pay employees the living wage.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-11398, in the name of James Kelly, on the living wage. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate t...
James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab) Lab
It gives me great delight to open this debate on the living wage on behalf of the Labour Party. Labour wants to use this debate to promote living wage week, ...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
James Kelly Lab
Let me develop this point, and I will let Mr McDonald in. I will give Angela Constance a bit of free advice in the context of the deputy leadership contest....
Mark McDonald SNP
I note that the member is one of the brains trust behind Jim Murphy’s Labour leadership campaign, which already calls into question Mr Murphy’s judgment. Non...
James Kelly Lab
I think that Mark McDonald should be a bit more cautious in calling for minimum wage powers when the Government cannot even use the powers that it has to giv...
The Cabinet Secretary for Training, Youth and Women’s Employment (Angela Constance) SNP
I was looking forward to a nice consensual debate this afternoon. I was very interested that Mr Kelly wants a living wage strategy and a living wage unit, bu...
Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Angela Constance SNP
Not just now, thanks. I will make progress. I suggest that it is Mr Kelly and his colleagues who are rather timid. In the Scottish Government’s draft budge...
James Kelly Lab
The cabinet secretary mentioned the Government’s commitment to the living wage in the Scottish budget. Does she accept that there are workers at Scottish Gov...
Angela Constance SNP
That leads me neatly on to my next point. A plank of this Government’s success is our public sector pay policy, which has at its heart tackling inequality an...
James Kelly Lab
Does the cabinet secretary accept that the workers I was talking about are not covered by the public sector pay policy, nor are the subcontractors? What acti...
Angela Constance SNP
Where we have the power to act, we act. Unlike Mr Kelly, this Government will not participate in gesture politics. I am pig sick of the Labour Party always a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Order.
Angela Constance SNP
Labour members need to stop being mischievous and misleading. Where we have the power to act, we act. Our record compares very well with that of the previous...
Hugh Henry Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Angela Constance SNP
No, thanks—I am running out of time. We want to go further, because we believe that employers should reward their staff fairly. That is why we are calling o...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Many in the media have been saying that politics in Scotland is changing; after listening to the opening speeches, I think that that much is clear. We have h...
Dave Thompson (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Mary Scanlon Con
I have less than 20 seconds left. However, when that wage depends on public funding, the funding should be at a level to allow the operators to pay the livi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
You should draw to a close, please.
Mary Scanlon Con
I am pleased that I have had the chance to speak in the debate. I am four seconds over my time, so I will leave it there. I move amendment S4M-11398.1 to le...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
We now move to the open debate. We are very tight for time. Members have up to four minutes, please. 16:15
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I listened to James Kelly with a growing sense of bemusement, because Labour has no credibility whatsoever on the issue of the living wage. The simple way to...
James Kelly Lab
Can Joan McAlpine explain why the Department of Energy and Climate Change at Westminster is able to ensure that all its workers and subcontractors will be pa...
Joan McAlpine SNP
That is not done through procurement—but I will address those issues. It is not just the Scottish Government, the EU commissioner and the Court of Justice o...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the member give way?
Joan McAlpine SNP
I am in my final minute, and I have already taken an intervention. Please sit down.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
The member is in her final minute.
Joan McAlpine SNP
That advice gives me no pleasure. For that reason, I echo the minister and very much hope that the Smith commission will heed calls from enlightened voices i...