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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 08 October 2014

08 Oct 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Policing
Allard, Christian SNP North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I am afraid that four minutes is far too short to debate the 203 words in the motion that Graeme Pearson, the Labour justice spokesman, has put before us. Let us take words 7 and 8, and discuss what Mr Pearson calls “fundamental changes”. Those are operational matters that were in place long before Police Scotland was created—in police forces all across Scotland and south of the border.

The role of the Scottish Police Authority board was created to hold the chief constable to account, not to micromanage the chief constable, as Mr Pearson would like it to do. Mr Pearson and his Labour colleagues chose to ignore that and are calling operational matters policy decisions, to undermine Police Scotland. Stop and search was a policy that Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats supported, yet today they use that important tool in Police Scotland’s toolbox to undermine the excellent work of police officers working to make our streets safe.

As for armed police officers in our streets, Mr Pearson has been found out. We heard it: we know now that the Labour justice spokesman wanted a standing authority for his officers to carry firearms when he was director of the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency.

I believe that Mr Pearson should consider his position as a member of the Justice Sub-Committee on Policing. I could replace him easily, Presiding Officer, and I shall explain why. The motion lodged by Labour’s justice spokesman attacks the Scottish Police Authority for failing to hold the chief constable to account. Let me remind the chamber who has the remit to scrutinise all aspects of policing in Scotland. The Justice Sub-Committee on Policing has that remit. If Mr Pearson thinks that he has failed, he should reconsider his position.

The motion from Scottish Labour tells us more about that party than it tells us about Police Scotland. The motion is about Scottish Labour members wanting to micromanage our police officers. They did it when they were in charge and they want to do it now that they are in opposition. It is not about political interference from Scottish Labour; it is much more than that. It is about Labour politicians wanting to tell our police officers how to do their job. Labour members did not have a clue then, and they do not have a clue now.

I remember a North East Scotland MSP who was Labour justice spokesman—he has left the chamber now—supporting police reform at the time. Scottish Labour believed then that the change was essential to ensure that we had policing fit for Scotland in the 21st century and to maximise investment in front-line services right across Scotland. That is what Police Scotland and the cabinet secretary have achieved.

I understand why the Scottish Conservative amendment says nothing about elected police commissioners and why Margaret Mitchell did not say anything about that in her speech. It was another of the Liberal Democrats’ great ideas for getting elected, but people just cannot trust the Liberal Democrats on policing. One would think that Labour members would know that using Police Scotland as a political football will get them nowhere—exactly where the Liberal Democrats are today.

If someone should resign, it is Graeme Pearson, a member of the Justice Sub-Committee on Policing who thinks that the role of that committee is to be a political tool to attack Police Scotland at every opportunity, in the media and here in the chamber.

I will be supporting the cabinet secretary’s amendment to the motion. There has been no fundamental change in the way that police operate.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-11114, in the name of Graeme Pearson, on policing. 15:09
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is with some disappointment that I feel the need to move this motion. It is my belief that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice has abandoned his responsibil...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
We have discussed policing many times in the chamber over the past 18 months. The Parliament and three committees debated the legislation at length before it...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
If that is the case—if there is that causation—why did crime in England and Wales fall 15 per cent last year, and why is it at its lowest point since records...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
Crime in England and Wales has not dropped as far or as fast as it has dropped in Scotland, but the decline in police numbers is significant and huge. Number...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Kenny MacAskill SNP
Not at the moment. That is not only my view, but the view of Niven Rennie, the president of the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, who said thi...
Graeme Pearson Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Kenny MacAskill SNP
In a minute. Let me be clear: operational independence is different from accountability. The chief constable is solely responsible for decisions to enforce ...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Kenny MacAskill SNP
I am coming into my last minute. Interruption.
The Presiding Officer NPA
Order.
Kenny MacAskill SNP
We have come a long way since the early stages of reform and the arrangements are now much more effective. The SPA stands for not simply holding the police t...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
It is important to stress at the outset that since Police Scotland was formed more than 18 months ago, front-line police officers have worked tremendously ha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The member must conclude.
Margaret Mitchell Con
It is the cabinet secretary’s duty to ensure the effectiveness of the checks and balances that should guarantee the enforcement of essential accountability f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that the member must close.
Margaret Mitchell Con
In that respect, the cabinet secretary’s stewardship has been totally inept. I move amendment S4M-11114.1, to leave out from “responsibility” to end and ins...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We are very tight for time this afternoon. If members wish to speak in the debate, they must press their request-to-speak button. Members must stick to a ver...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Graeme Pearson, in his opening speech, asked, “Who watches the watchers?”, and his motion mentions responsibility, accountability, scrutiny and challenge. I...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
Does the member agree that the fact that there are now only five or maybe six Labour members in the chamber and the fact that only half the afternoon has bee...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You are approaching your final minute, Mr Stewart.
Kevin Stewart SNP
I agree that it is completely a political stunt. I would go much further, because I agree with Brian Docherty that this is about “point-scoring politicians” ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Come to a close, please.
Kevin Stewart SNP
From some members, we have seen flip-flopping on the issue to create instability and to interfere and point score.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that you must close.
Kevin Stewart SNP
That has got to stop.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Members must keep strictly to four minutes, please. 15:36
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
Like other members, I welcomed last week’s announcement by the chief constable that he had jettisoned his policy of deploying armed police officers on routin...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am afraid that four minutes is far too short to debate the 203 words in the motion that Graeme Pearson, the Labour justice spokesman, has put before us. Le...