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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 April 2014

02 Apr 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Stop and Search
Henry, Hugh Lab Renfrewshire South Watch on SPTV

I want to put on record my support for stop and search. Indeed, as a minister, I played some part in ensuring that additional powers were made available to the police to carry out stop and search across Scotland. I have absolutely no doubt that stop and search has had a role to play in tackling inappropriate behaviour, in removing knives from people carrying them, in removing alcohol from young people and, generally, in making our streets safer. I therefore have no problem with additional powers for the police, nor do I have a problem with the use of those powers in stop and searches.

I agree with the cabinet secretary on a number of things. Indeed, I agree with Sandra White that there is a record drop in crime—right across Europe, including in England, there is a record drop in crime. The drop in England is even bigger than the drop in Scotland. It would be inappropriate to try to predicate the defence of an important power such as stop and search on bogus arguments that its use is the sole reason for the drop in crime, because other factors are at play. The reduction in crime in the developed world is a strange phenomenon. It ill behoves us to try to cloud the argument about that with the argument about stop and search.

Let us look at stop and search on its merits in Scotland. The record shows that stop and search is effective and is an important part of police powers. However, if concerns are raised about the use of stop and search, it is right that we look objectively and dispassionately at the arguments and criticisms. It should not be beyond us to accept the criticisms on the chin if things are going wrong and if powers are being used inappropriately. Indeed, it is in the interests of the police to ensure that public confidence in the use of stop and search powers is retained. When we see statistics that should give us cause to stop and think again, such as the statistic that, in a three-year period from 2010 to 2013, the rate doubled from 64 per 1,000 to 131 per 1,000, we need to ask ourselves why. Had behaviour deteriorated during that period? Were we more at risk of crime? What led to those figures?

We have heard concerns about the comments of the chief constable, who admitted that figures were made up. We have had a lot of debate about corroboration, and the chief constable’s comments were corroborated by other senior people in the police service who also admitted that figures were made up. When we hear such comments, we should stop and look at the issue, not to undermine or seek to abolish stop and search, but to strengthen public support for it. It would be wise for the cabinet secretary to take a step back and in his regular meetings with the police service ask it to look at the criticisms and consider in detail what is happening. When the cabinet secretary talks to the SPA, he should ask it to do its job in holding the police to account. It is in the interests of the SPA, the police and the public that we support stop and search and that it is done properly.

15:23

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09557, in the name of Alison McInnes, on stop and search. 14:40
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
It is a privilege to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Yesterday marked the first anniversary of Police Scotland and the aboliti...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Alison McInnes LD
Not at the moment. We will, therefore, introduce amendments to the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill and present Parliament with an opportunity to improve th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Kenny MacAskill, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, to speak to and move amendment S4M-09557.2. You have seven minutes. I make it clear that we are ti...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
I welcome the chance to respond to the motion lodged by Alison McInnes. Stop and search is an important issue, so it is disappointing that the Liberal Democ...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I have listened with interest to what the cabinet secretary says, and I have looked at the text of his amendment. When it comes to policing in Scotland from ...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
Not at all. I have just come from a meeting with the police and the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner. We established through Parliament—by a maj...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD
The cabinet secretary is fond of quoting statistics, but what was the success rate of the so-called voluntary stop and searches?
Kenny MacAskill SNP
I cannot give the member that precisely, but what he will see is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Alcohol and knives are taken from many of th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Graeme Pearson to speak to and move amendment S4M-09557.1. Mr Pearson, you have up to five minutes. 14:57
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I rise to move the amendment in my name, which, because of the Government’s pre-emptive amendment, is unlikely to be voted on. To that extent I am disappoint...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Please draw to a close.
Graeme Pearson Lab
I will indeed, Presiding Officer. In the same magazine, the chief constable asks whether people “seriously think” that the police should go to the public to...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
At the outset, I confirm that I very much support the ability of police officers to stop and search suspects. It is an important power in the fight against c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We now come to the open debate. We are very tight for time, so speeches should be a maximum of four minutes, please. 15:07
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I think that we agree that we all want crime to be tackled and our communities to be made safer. It is to be welcomed that recorded crime is at a 39-year low...
Margaret Mitchell Con
Will the member give way?
Sandra White SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. If those kids in Glasgow had been down by the Clyde drinking alcohol until midnight or 1 o’clock at night, something cou...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Liberal Democrats for lodging their motion. Disappointingly, the amendment from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice merely reinforces the impressio...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Mr Pentland, will you pull your microphone round towards you, please?
John Pentland Lab
We do not know whether that is a tenth of our population or fewer people suffering more searches, but we know that the figure is four times that for England ...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I will begin by stating what is perhaps the obvious, which is that I am completely against the idea of fiddled or made-up figures from any public body. I am ...
Alison McInnes LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Roderick Campbell SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. I am sure that we all accept that we live in a very different world from that of 50 years ago or even 20 years ago. Over...
Alison McInnes LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Roderick Campbell SNP
I am sorry, but time prevents me from doing so. In evidence to the Justice Sub-Committee on Policing on 20 March, Police Scotland revealed that the rate of ...
Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Lab
I want to put on record my support for stop and search. Indeed, as a minister, I played some part in ensuring that additional powers were made available to t...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to participate in the debate, as it is always a pleasure to respond to Liberal Democrat members who want to compare Scotland’s achievements in...
Alison McInnes LD
That demonstrates what I do support, which is statutory stop and search, on reasonable suspicion and intelligence led. What I am debating this afternoon and ...