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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 April 2014

02 Apr 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Stop and Search

I am sorry, but I do not have time.

I am sure that we all accept that we live in a very different world from that of 50 years ago or even 20 years ago. Over the weekend, I happened to spot a picture of Willie Rennie sporting an unusual pair of glasses while touring a brewery in Ellon. It may be that those glasses were a necessary safety measure, or it may be that rose-tinted glasses were handed out at the sunshine party conference last weekend. Whatever the case may be, I cannot help but think that the Liberal Democrat view of modern policing would be better suited to the 1950s, when bobbies on the beat would stop for a chat about the weather and all citizens were law abiding and never carried knives. Indeed, one commentator yesterday said that Willie Rennie had a “Dixon of Dock Green” view of policing. Of course, that programme has not been broadcast since 1976, so perhaps he is not familiar with it.

Regrettably, we simply do not live in that kind of society. People commit crime. Sadly, people become victims every day. We need the police to be rigorous in ensuring that people are as safe as possible. The value of community policing is universally accepted, but we need to ensure that the police have the ability to protect people. I am instinctively against profiling people. In most cases, discrimination is morally dubious, if not illegal. However, we simply cannot ignore the fact that, when age and gender are taken into account, more crimes are committed by young men than by any other demographic group.

In my view, the most effective use of police resources is a focused but not target-driven approach to stop and search. The police must, and do, formulate an intelligent approach to stop and search. Clearly, if the police concentrated on searches of elderly women, a demographic group who do not commit crime, there might be cause for concern.

As for searches of children, we should bear it in mind that, in February, Deputy Chief Constable Rose Fitzpatrick said that when children are stopped

“it is usually for their own welfare or child protection issues, and often instigated from reports by teachers, social workers or third sector agencies.”

Stop and search is a question of balance. We need to balance individual liberties and policing by consent with the protection of the public. However, I accept that the balance is not perfect. Although stop and search may be an operational matter, proper records should be maintained. They need to be accurate and should include information about when individuals are repeatedly searched.

I acknowledge the legitimate concerns about regulation and accountability raised by the Scottish Human Rights Commission. However, let us also consider the proportionality of stop and search. Thirty seven per cent of searches undertaken to detect possession of firearms had a positive result; likewise, 37 per cent of searches to detect underage possession of alcohol had a positive result. It is somewhat wide of the mark to suggest that the searches are an indiscriminate intrusion into individuals’ personal freedom. Of course the searches are targeted; if it was otherwise, the success rate would be negligible, and I imagine that it is a bit of a misconception to say that 37 per cent of the population illegally carry firearms.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09557, in the name of Alison McInnes, on stop and search. 14:40
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
It is a privilege to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Yesterday marked the first anniversary of Police Scotland and the aboliti...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Alison McInnes LD
Not at the moment. We will, therefore, introduce amendments to the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill and present Parliament with an opportunity to improve th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Kenny MacAskill, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, to speak to and move amendment S4M-09557.2. You have seven minutes. I make it clear that we are ti...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
I welcome the chance to respond to the motion lodged by Alison McInnes. Stop and search is an important issue, so it is disappointing that the Liberal Democ...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I have listened with interest to what the cabinet secretary says, and I have looked at the text of his amendment. When it comes to policing in Scotland from ...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
Not at all. I have just come from a meeting with the police and the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner. We established through Parliament—by a maj...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD
The cabinet secretary is fond of quoting statistics, but what was the success rate of the so-called voluntary stop and searches?
Kenny MacAskill SNP
I cannot give the member that precisely, but what he will see is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Alcohol and knives are taken from many of th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Graeme Pearson to speak to and move amendment S4M-09557.1. Mr Pearson, you have up to five minutes. 14:57
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I rise to move the amendment in my name, which, because of the Government’s pre-emptive amendment, is unlikely to be voted on. To that extent I am disappoint...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Please draw to a close.
Graeme Pearson Lab
I will indeed, Presiding Officer. In the same magazine, the chief constable asks whether people “seriously think” that the police should go to the public to...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
At the outset, I confirm that I very much support the ability of police officers to stop and search suspects. It is an important power in the fight against c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We now come to the open debate. We are very tight for time, so speeches should be a maximum of four minutes, please. 15:07
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I think that we agree that we all want crime to be tackled and our communities to be made safer. It is to be welcomed that recorded crime is at a 39-year low...
Margaret Mitchell Con
Will the member give way?
Sandra White SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. If those kids in Glasgow had been down by the Clyde drinking alcohol until midnight or 1 o’clock at night, something cou...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Liberal Democrats for lodging their motion. Disappointingly, the amendment from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice merely reinforces the impressio...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Mr Pentland, will you pull your microphone round towards you, please?
John Pentland Lab
We do not know whether that is a tenth of our population or fewer people suffering more searches, but we know that the figure is four times that for England ...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I will begin by stating what is perhaps the obvious, which is that I am completely against the idea of fiddled or made-up figures from any public body. I am ...
Alison McInnes LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Roderick Campbell SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. I am sure that we all accept that we live in a very different world from that of 50 years ago or even 20 years ago. Over...
Alison McInnes LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Roderick Campbell SNP
I am sorry, but time prevents me from doing so. In evidence to the Justice Sub-Committee on Policing on 20 March, Police Scotland revealed that the rate of ...
Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Lab
I want to put on record my support for stop and search. Indeed, as a minister, I played some part in ensuring that additional powers were made available to t...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to participate in the debate, as it is always a pleasure to respond to Liberal Democrat members who want to compare Scotland’s achievements in...
Alison McInnes LD
That demonstrates what I do support, which is statutory stop and search, on reasonable suspicion and intelligence led. What I am debating this afternoon and ...