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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 April 2014

02 Apr 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Stop and Search
Pentland, John Lab Motherwell and Wishaw Watch on SPTV

We do not know whether that is a tenth of our population or fewer people suffering more searches, but we know that the figure is four times that for England and Wales. Why does the justice secretary think that our citizens are less trustworthy than those in the rest of the UK?

Furthermore, what about the concerns over the hundreds of young children who have been stopped and searched; the question of consent in cases where there is no suspicion of criminal activity, which are the vast majority of cases; the recording of incidents; and the consequences of stop and search? Those are real issues of public concern, but not, it seems, in the eyes of the justice secretary. In common with almost everything that Police Scotland does, they are considered to be operational matters and not his responsibility. As long as Police Scotland maintains officer numbers above a certain level, the justice secretary leaves it to that body to slash its budget by closing down facilities and shedding thousands of civilian staff.

On that point, I note the publication of Police Scotland’s corporate strategy, which is full of operational matters that are none of our business and further cuts for which the Scottish Government cannot be held responsible. Funnily enough, I have yet to find any reference to stop and search in the document, so we might assume that its prevalence is not a deliberate, strategic measure—unless, that is, it is an attempt to make the police more visible so that we do not notice the extent to which civilian jobs are being backfilled.

The cabinet secretary will welcome and take credit for the evidence that there are still enough officers on the streets to stop and search so many people, but really he ought to be addressing the dire state towards which policing in Scotland is heading, with staffing policies retreating towards the era of “Life on Mars”—the TV programme, not the song by the nationalists’ bête noire. Now, it seems, policing tactics and civil liberties may be heading in a similar direction.

What about that toothless tiger, the Scottish Police Authority? As MSPs, we do not get much say, but the SPA is supposed to provide the public with accountability. Does it do that? Has it ever sent Police Scotland “homeward” to “think again” when proposals such as those for control rooms have been shown to be lacking consultation, evidence and scrutiny? Why is the SPA just rubber-stamping everything, regardless of that lack of consultation, evidence and scrutiny?

If the SPA was a football team, the public would be demanding the resignation of the person who picked the team. Why should it be any different for the justice secretary?

15:15

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09557, in the name of Alison McInnes, on stop and search. 14:40
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
It is a privilege to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Yesterday marked the first anniversary of Police Scotland and the aboliti...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Alison McInnes LD
Not at the moment. We will, therefore, introduce amendments to the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill and present Parliament with an opportunity to improve th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Kenny MacAskill, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, to speak to and move amendment S4M-09557.2. You have seven minutes. I make it clear that we are ti...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
I welcome the chance to respond to the motion lodged by Alison McInnes. Stop and search is an important issue, so it is disappointing that the Liberal Democ...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I have listened with interest to what the cabinet secretary says, and I have looked at the text of his amendment. When it comes to policing in Scotland from ...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
Not at all. I have just come from a meeting with the police and the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner. We established through Parliament—by a maj...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD
The cabinet secretary is fond of quoting statistics, but what was the success rate of the so-called voluntary stop and searches?
Kenny MacAskill SNP
I cannot give the member that precisely, but what he will see is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Alcohol and knives are taken from many of th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Graeme Pearson to speak to and move amendment S4M-09557.1. Mr Pearson, you have up to five minutes. 14:57
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I rise to move the amendment in my name, which, because of the Government’s pre-emptive amendment, is unlikely to be voted on. To that extent I am disappoint...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Please draw to a close.
Graeme Pearson Lab
I will indeed, Presiding Officer. In the same magazine, the chief constable asks whether people “seriously think” that the police should go to the public to...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
At the outset, I confirm that I very much support the ability of police officers to stop and search suspects. It is an important power in the fight against c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We now come to the open debate. We are very tight for time, so speeches should be a maximum of four minutes, please. 15:07
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I think that we agree that we all want crime to be tackled and our communities to be made safer. It is to be welcomed that recorded crime is at a 39-year low...
Margaret Mitchell Con
Will the member give way?
Sandra White SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. If those kids in Glasgow had been down by the Clyde drinking alcohol until midnight or 1 o’clock at night, something cou...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Liberal Democrats for lodging their motion. Disappointingly, the amendment from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice merely reinforces the impressio...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Mr Pentland, will you pull your microphone round towards you, please?
John Pentland Lab
We do not know whether that is a tenth of our population or fewer people suffering more searches, but we know that the figure is four times that for England ...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I will begin by stating what is perhaps the obvious, which is that I am completely against the idea of fiddled or made-up figures from any public body. I am ...
Alison McInnes LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Roderick Campbell SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. I am sure that we all accept that we live in a very different world from that of 50 years ago or even 20 years ago. Over...
Alison McInnes LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Roderick Campbell SNP
I am sorry, but time prevents me from doing so. In evidence to the Justice Sub-Committee on Policing on 20 March, Police Scotland revealed that the rate of ...
Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Lab
I want to put on record my support for stop and search. Indeed, as a minister, I played some part in ensuring that additional powers were made available to t...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to participate in the debate, as it is always a pleasure to respond to Liberal Democrat members who want to compare Scotland’s achievements in...
Alison McInnes LD
That demonstrates what I do support, which is statutory stop and search, on reasonable suspicion and intelligence led. What I am debating this afternoon and ...