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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 April 2014

02 Apr 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Stop and Search

I rise to move the amendment in my name, which, because of the Government’s pre-emptive amendment, is unlikely to be voted on. To that extent I am disappointed. What the cabinet secretary forgot to quote in his speech was the effective oversight that my amendment seeks to pass comment on.

I must congratulate the cabinet secretary. It takes a fair amount of effort to generate anger in the Liberal Democrat Party, whose motion seems to reflect a great deal of anger. To that extent, I believe that we should amend it.

Nothing in my amendment criticises the staff involved in stop and searches in our streets across Scotland; nor do we criticise the support staff who provide the intelligence that leads to many of the positive searches. Indeed, Police Scotland is the latest in a long line of organisations that have policed the streets of Scotland, which goes back to 1799. However, that policing was always maintained with the public’s consent.

At a time when we have 1,000 additional police officers on our streets and in our offices, there are more than 0.5 million fewer people under the age of 25 in Scotland compared with a couple of decades ago. The Government made a very significant comment about a 39-year low in crime, so it seems illogical that stop and searches here are at a level four times higher than the level in England and Wales.

I am questioning not this particular police tactic, which I think we recognise is effective when properly used, but the policy endorsement of such tactics and strategies. When did the Scottish Police Authority decide that it agreed with this tactic? Was there a debate at that level about the huge rise in the number of stop and searches? Did the cabinet secretary know ahead of time that the authority had agreed such tactics, and did he assess for himself the impact that they might have on relationships between the police and the public?

We live in a democratic country and expect democratic accountability of any police activity that is conducted in our name. However, when the cabinet secretary is questioned on such matters, his lament is that they are operational matters and that, as such, he leaves them to the chief constable. It is one thing for the chief constable as a professional to decide on the way forward on behalf of Police Scotland, but those who represent our communities are under a duty not only to question the chief constable but to ensure that the Scottish Police Authority, too, questions him about that way forward.

The chief constable is on record as acknowledging that some of the numbers are made up, which calls into question the integrity of the reporting system. That impression has been reinforced by the chief executive of the Scottish Police Federation, who has said:

“Because we have this bizarre approach in terms of stopping and searching, we have police officers that are making numbers up. We have not searched 500,000 of Scotland’s citizens—I am telling you now, that has not happened.”

When I raised the matter with Mr MacAskill in this very chamber, he responded that the words had been taken out of context. I do not know what context they were taken out of, but they seemed clear to me. The quandary over how the numbers have been made up has resulted in a quandary over the policy that is being adhered to and its effectiveness.

The cabinet secretary told us that the Parliament has a sub-committee to scrutinise policing, but he will also acknowledge that it took nearly 18 months to persuade the Government that we needed such scrutiny. In fact, when I questioned him at the Justice Committee, the chair of the Scottish Police Authority seemed to believe that he was responsible for the democratic oversight of policing in Scotland. That is certainly not the case; the police need to justify their way forward.

In today’s Holyrood magazine, the chief constable acknowledges that crime is likely to rise in the foreseeable future—

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09557, in the name of Alison McInnes, on stop and search. 14:40
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
It is a privilege to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Yesterday marked the first anniversary of Police Scotland and the aboliti...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Alison McInnes LD
Not at the moment. We will, therefore, introduce amendments to the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill and present Parliament with an opportunity to improve th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Kenny MacAskill, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, to speak to and move amendment S4M-09557.2. You have seven minutes. I make it clear that we are ti...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
I welcome the chance to respond to the motion lodged by Alison McInnes. Stop and search is an important issue, so it is disappointing that the Liberal Democ...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I have listened with interest to what the cabinet secretary says, and I have looked at the text of his amendment. When it comes to policing in Scotland from ...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
Not at all. I have just come from a meeting with the police and the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner. We established through Parliament—by a maj...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD
The cabinet secretary is fond of quoting statistics, but what was the success rate of the so-called voluntary stop and searches?
Kenny MacAskill SNP
I cannot give the member that precisely, but what he will see is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Alcohol and knives are taken from many of th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Graeme Pearson to speak to and move amendment S4M-09557.1. Mr Pearson, you have up to five minutes. 14:57
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I rise to move the amendment in my name, which, because of the Government’s pre-emptive amendment, is unlikely to be voted on. To that extent I am disappoint...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Please draw to a close.
Graeme Pearson Lab
I will indeed, Presiding Officer. In the same magazine, the chief constable asks whether people “seriously think” that the police should go to the public to...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
At the outset, I confirm that I very much support the ability of police officers to stop and search suspects. It is an important power in the fight against c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We now come to the open debate. We are very tight for time, so speeches should be a maximum of four minutes, please. 15:07
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I think that we agree that we all want crime to be tackled and our communities to be made safer. It is to be welcomed that recorded crime is at a 39-year low...
Margaret Mitchell Con
Will the member give way?
Sandra White SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. If those kids in Glasgow had been down by the Clyde drinking alcohol until midnight or 1 o’clock at night, something cou...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Liberal Democrats for lodging their motion. Disappointingly, the amendment from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice merely reinforces the impressio...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Mr Pentland, will you pull your microphone round towards you, please?
John Pentland Lab
We do not know whether that is a tenth of our population or fewer people suffering more searches, but we know that the figure is four times that for England ...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I will begin by stating what is perhaps the obvious, which is that I am completely against the idea of fiddled or made-up figures from any public body. I am ...
Alison McInnes LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Roderick Campbell SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. I am sure that we all accept that we live in a very different world from that of 50 years ago or even 20 years ago. Over...
Alison McInnes LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Roderick Campbell SNP
I am sorry, but time prevents me from doing so. In evidence to the Justice Sub-Committee on Policing on 20 March, Police Scotland revealed that the rate of ...
Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Lab
I want to put on record my support for stop and search. Indeed, as a minister, I played some part in ensuring that additional powers were made available to t...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to participate in the debate, as it is always a pleasure to respond to Liberal Democrat members who want to compare Scotland’s achievements in...
Alison McInnes LD
That demonstrates what I do support, which is statutory stop and search, on reasonable suspicion and intelligence led. What I am debating this afternoon and ...