Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 20 November 2013
20 Nov 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I apologise for not noticing earlier that we were running slightly ahead of schedule.
As is becoming clear to everyone, the bill that we are debating is different from the bills about which we debate policy or the intricacies of law. Speaking personally, as Ruth Davidson did, I can only feel that the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill is much more immediate and more fundamental, and that it deals with the question of my civil rights. After consideration, I concluded that my remarks, too, ought to reflect that.
It will not come as a surprise to anyone that, when I was young and my classmates started to notice girls, I started to notice boys. I was afraid. I looked at our society and I did not see myself looking back, whether in our institutions, such as marriage, in what was regarded in public debate at the time as good and moral, or even in how our society portrayed itself in fiction, in which any representation of same-sex attraction made the subject matter adult, to be ranked alongside pornography and violence. When all that I saw or knew of gay people was Julian Clary, Kenneth Williams or Graham Norton, I—a boy from a chip shop in Dunbartonshire—did not see myself. I could only conclude that I was different from normal and that what I was was less deserving as a result.
Today, this chamber can add a new tile to the great interlocking mosaic of our society that has been built up steadily, one piece at a time, since the Wolfenden report of 1957. Same-sex marriage will not be the last piece to be added to that mosaic. The bill is not the finished article, not least for the transgendered, but today we can further build a picture of our society that generations of young people to come can look at and see themselves in. People of faith, whether gay or straight, must see themselves in that image, too, because it would be perverse to expand the freedom to express sexuality only at the cost of the freedom to practise faith. Both are fundamental cornerstones of a humane society, and the dichotomy between them is a false one.
Amending UK equality laws puts beyond doubt any concern that churches could be forced to hold same-sex marriages by domestic law. Anyone can speculate about hypothetical European challenges, but the ECHR includes specific protection for freedom of religious practice. I quote:
“There would ... be a quite a hurdle and a strong protection under article 9 if churches can prove that they are not part of the state.”
“The Church of Scotland is not and has never been a department of the state”.—[Official Report, Equal Opportunities Committee, 19 September 2013; c 1495, 1494.]
Those are not my words, but those of Aidan O’Neill QC, when, as legal adviser to the campaign against the bill, he gave evidence to the Equal Opportunities Committee. If the Kirk is not classed as a department of state, which faith would be? The Equality and Human Rights Commission and Karon Monaghan, who is a human rights law specialist, formed part of the consensus that the protections were strong and that the freedom of religion was genuine.
However, we do not have to speculate. Nine countries in Europe have already legalised same-sex marriage and not one has seen churches being forced to hold such marriages. That fact was confirmed to the Equal Opportunities Committee not once, not twice, but three times over by different witnesses.
Above all, we must not be drawn by the remote and hypothetical challenge to religious freedom to such an extent that we overlook the very tangible, very real and very much on-going violation of personal freedom that is the exclusion of people of same-sex attraction from expressing their love through marriage, which is the institution that our society considers to be the paragon of commitment.
Civil partnerships were a welcome step, but they remind me of the ladies degrees that were offered before women were admitted to Scotland’s universities on an equal footing for the first time in 1892. Those degrees were progressive for their time—they opened the door—but who today would argue that a women-only degree was a substitute for allowing women to study on the same terms as men? Civil partnerships are “separate but equal”, which is always separate and never equal. They are not enough.
If we were to surprise everyone and to vote down the bill today, who would we be to continue to infringe the freedom of those progressive faiths such as Scotland’s Quakers and Scotland’s Unitarians that sincerely consider same-sex ceremonies to be part of their understanding of what marriage is and should be?
As is becoming clear to everyone, the bill that we are debating is different from the bills about which we debate policy or the intricacies of law. Speaking personally, as Ruth Davidson did, I can only feel that the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill is much more immediate and more fundamental, and that it deals with the question of my civil rights. After consideration, I concluded that my remarks, too, ought to reflect that.
It will not come as a surprise to anyone that, when I was young and my classmates started to notice girls, I started to notice boys. I was afraid. I looked at our society and I did not see myself looking back, whether in our institutions, such as marriage, in what was regarded in public debate at the time as good and moral, or even in how our society portrayed itself in fiction, in which any representation of same-sex attraction made the subject matter adult, to be ranked alongside pornography and violence. When all that I saw or knew of gay people was Julian Clary, Kenneth Williams or Graham Norton, I—a boy from a chip shop in Dunbartonshire—did not see myself. I could only conclude that I was different from normal and that what I was was less deserving as a result.
Today, this chamber can add a new tile to the great interlocking mosaic of our society that has been built up steadily, one piece at a time, since the Wolfenden report of 1957. Same-sex marriage will not be the last piece to be added to that mosaic. The bill is not the finished article, not least for the transgendered, but today we can further build a picture of our society that generations of young people to come can look at and see themselves in. People of faith, whether gay or straight, must see themselves in that image, too, because it would be perverse to expand the freedom to express sexuality only at the cost of the freedom to practise faith. Both are fundamental cornerstones of a humane society, and the dichotomy between them is a false one.
Amending UK equality laws puts beyond doubt any concern that churches could be forced to hold same-sex marriages by domestic law. Anyone can speculate about hypothetical European challenges, but the ECHR includes specific protection for freedom of religious practice. I quote:
“There would ... be a quite a hurdle and a strong protection under article 9 if churches can prove that they are not part of the state.”
“The Church of Scotland is not and has never been a department of the state”.—[Official Report, Equal Opportunities Committee, 19 September 2013; c 1495, 1494.]
Those are not my words, but those of Aidan O’Neill QC, when, as legal adviser to the campaign against the bill, he gave evidence to the Equal Opportunities Committee. If the Kirk is not classed as a department of state, which faith would be? The Equality and Human Rights Commission and Karon Monaghan, who is a human rights law specialist, formed part of the consensus that the protections were strong and that the freedom of religion was genuine.
However, we do not have to speculate. Nine countries in Europe have already legalised same-sex marriage and not one has seen churches being forced to hold such marriages. That fact was confirmed to the Equal Opportunities Committee not once, not twice, but three times over by different witnesses.
Above all, we must not be drawn by the remote and hypothetical challenge to religious freedom to such an extent that we overlook the very tangible, very real and very much on-going violation of personal freedom that is the exclusion of people of same-sex attraction from expressing their love through marriage, which is the institution that our society considers to be the paragon of commitment.
Civil partnerships were a welcome step, but they remind me of the ladies degrees that were offered before women were admitted to Scotland’s universities on an equal footing for the first time in 1892. Those degrees were progressive for their time—they opened the door—but who today would argue that a women-only degree was a substitute for allowing women to study on the same terms as men? Civil partnerships are “separate but equal”, which is always separate and never equal. They are not enough.
If we were to surprise everyone and to vote down the bill today, who would we be to continue to infringe the freedom of those progressive faiths such as Scotland’s Quakers and Scotland’s Unitarians that sincerely consider same-sex ceremonies to be part of their understanding of what marriage is and should be?
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08327, in the name of Alex Neil, on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill.16:58
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Alex Neil)
SNP
The Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill will make a number of changes to the law on marriage and civil partnership, but the centrepiece is obvious...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
What provisions are there in the bill to avoid situations in extremis that may occur when one party challenges the other, which could possibly force action t...
Alex Neil
SNP
I will go into detail on such issues later when I discuss the recommendations from the Equal Opportunities Committee.I have already referred to same-sex marr...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Can the minister clarify at this point exactly how he intends to deal with the issue of the 4,100 consultation submissions that were—through no fault of his—...
Alex Neil
SNP
We have found the submissions and we will put them on the website. As Alex Johnstone said, they were not lost through any fault of the Scottish Government. T...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As the cabinet secretary knows, my wife and I adopted our daughter some 30 years ago. Would he agree with me that because my wife and I do not support same-s...
Alex Neil
SNP
Believing in or opposing same-sex marriage is in itself no barrier to adoption. I am happy to write to Richard Lyle to clarify the law on adoption in relatio...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
The cabinet secretary will know that a Roman Catholic adoption agency is currently having its charitable status threatened because it does not recognise same...
Alex Neil
SNP
That matter is currently under legal appeal. Therefore, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on that particular example. I am happy to clarify such ma...
Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
SNP
At present, the state dictates what the position of each religious denomination should be on the matter: it explicitly does not allow them to marry people of...
Alex Neil
SNP
Absolutely; a number of religious organisations and churches are very much in favour of the proposed legislation—the Quakers being a good example. Until now,...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Does the cabinet secretary agree with the Queen’s counsel who told the Equal Opportunities Committee that legally the guidance will have no binding effect?
Alex Neil
SNP
I do not agree at all. The guidance is from the chief prosecutor to every prosecutor in Scotland. In my view, to say that it will have no impact is absolute ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I remind people in the gallery not to applaud.17:15
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Equal Opportunities Committee, following our stage 1 report on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotla...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will Margaret McCulloch give way?
Margaret McCulloch
Lab
No—I do not have time. I have a lot to get through on the report.Some witnesses emphasised the concept of complementarity between men and women. The Catholic...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to participate in this stage 1 debate on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill. At the outset, I commend the Scottish Government un...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I will in a second.Religions can and do refuse to marry people. That is a matter for them; it is not proposed that that will change.
Mark McDonald
SNP
The member has just made my point, which is that churches are already able to choose who they marry.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I am never keen to give up time to the member, but I am glad that we are in agreement.I welcome that point because it is important. However, I acknowledge th...
Ruth Davidson (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
The debate is not easy and it was never going to be. When areas of love meet the law and when belief, commitment and faith collide with legislation, the wate...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
I thank Ruth Davidson for giving way during her very eloquent contribution; I am enjoying it very much. She spoke about the next generation. I am the father ...
Ruth Davidson
Con
I would hope that their father would have helped to vote them that opportunity. Talking about the next generation is important because it is those people we ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We now move to the open debate. I have 20 members who wish to take part in the debate. I am absolutely determined that those who have already indicated their...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I apologise for not noticing earlier that we were running slightly ahead of schedule.As is becoming clear to everyone, the bill...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
Is the member aware that last month marked the 50th anniversary of the publication of a book called “Towards a Quaker View of Sex”? That book said:“Surely it...
Marco Biagi
SNP
I very much agree with the sentiment that was expressed, although I speak up for Unitarians, who have also been performing same-sex blessings since the 1950s...