Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 20 November 2013
20 Nov 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I am never keen to give up time to the member, but I am glad that we are in agreement.
I welcome that point because it is important. However, I acknowledge that some people are concerned that even those protections might be challenged in the courts. I therefore very much welcome the arrangement between the Scottish and UK Governments to amend the UK Equality Act 2010. The 2010 act contains provisions about not discriminating when providing a service, with exemptions for religious and belief bodies that apply in certain circumstances. The Scottish Government has rightly sought the protection to be more comprehensive by asking for a further amendment that would help to allay fears about challenges being brought on grounds of discrimination. It is helpful that an agreement has been reached with the UK Government on that point.
Concerns have also been expressed about whether it would affect someone’s employment if they held views that were opposed to same-sex marriage. The example most often cited is that teachers would be somehow forced out of their job if they refused to teach about same-sex marriage because they were fundamentally opposed to it. I think that we all acknowledge that teachers deal with difficult situations every day in schools. In the main, they do so sensitively—they balance their beliefs with the needs of the child or children before them. It would be wrong to put something in the bill when education circulars and guidance have served us extremely well in the past.
Existing legislative provision allows parents to withdraw their children from religious education. Existing guidance allows parents to withdraw their children from sexual health education. I welcome the Scottish Government’s proposal to update that guidance to reflect the introduction of same-sex marriage. Faith aspects of the curriculum in Catholic schools will continue to be a matter for the Scottish Catholic Education Service. However, it is important for the Scottish Government to review any suggested impact on education, to make doubly sure of the position. Like many other members, I have received thoughtful letters from teachers who support the proposal and teachers who are concerned about how to deal with same-sex marriage, so updated guidance will undoubtedly be helpful.
I have no doubt that amendments will be lodged with the aim of respecting the right of those who, as a result of their religious beliefs, take the traditional view of marriage as being between a man and a woman. Concerns have also been highlighted about freedom of speech. I note that the Lord Advocate has published guidance on the matter, which refers to provisions in the European Convention on Human Rights and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union on the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, along with freedom of expression. However, concerns remain. It is right for the Parliament to explore the subject again and ensure that the arrangements are robust.
The committee has also asked the Scottish Government to look again at the gender recognition provisions in the bill and at policy areas such as gender-neutral language and spousal consent for gender recognition. I have not had time to explore in detail all the issues that the committee raised but, Presiding Officer, you will have the fortune—or misfortune, depending on your view—to hear from me again in the closing speeches.
I hope that members will support the bill’s general principles at decision time. We and the Scottish Government have work to do to improve the bill and make it more robust. We must have adequate protections that genuinely address people’s concerns, but it is time for change. It is time to support equal marriage.
17:37
I welcome that point because it is important. However, I acknowledge that some people are concerned that even those protections might be challenged in the courts. I therefore very much welcome the arrangement between the Scottish and UK Governments to amend the UK Equality Act 2010. The 2010 act contains provisions about not discriminating when providing a service, with exemptions for religious and belief bodies that apply in certain circumstances. The Scottish Government has rightly sought the protection to be more comprehensive by asking for a further amendment that would help to allay fears about challenges being brought on grounds of discrimination. It is helpful that an agreement has been reached with the UK Government on that point.
Concerns have also been expressed about whether it would affect someone’s employment if they held views that were opposed to same-sex marriage. The example most often cited is that teachers would be somehow forced out of their job if they refused to teach about same-sex marriage because they were fundamentally opposed to it. I think that we all acknowledge that teachers deal with difficult situations every day in schools. In the main, they do so sensitively—they balance their beliefs with the needs of the child or children before them. It would be wrong to put something in the bill when education circulars and guidance have served us extremely well in the past.
Existing legislative provision allows parents to withdraw their children from religious education. Existing guidance allows parents to withdraw their children from sexual health education. I welcome the Scottish Government’s proposal to update that guidance to reflect the introduction of same-sex marriage. Faith aspects of the curriculum in Catholic schools will continue to be a matter for the Scottish Catholic Education Service. However, it is important for the Scottish Government to review any suggested impact on education, to make doubly sure of the position. Like many other members, I have received thoughtful letters from teachers who support the proposal and teachers who are concerned about how to deal with same-sex marriage, so updated guidance will undoubtedly be helpful.
I have no doubt that amendments will be lodged with the aim of respecting the right of those who, as a result of their religious beliefs, take the traditional view of marriage as being between a man and a woman. Concerns have also been highlighted about freedom of speech. I note that the Lord Advocate has published guidance on the matter, which refers to provisions in the European Convention on Human Rights and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union on the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, along with freedom of expression. However, concerns remain. It is right for the Parliament to explore the subject again and ensure that the arrangements are robust.
The committee has also asked the Scottish Government to look again at the gender recognition provisions in the bill and at policy areas such as gender-neutral language and spousal consent for gender recognition. I have not had time to explore in detail all the issues that the committee raised but, Presiding Officer, you will have the fortune—or misfortune, depending on your view—to hear from me again in the closing speeches.
I hope that members will support the bill’s general principles at decision time. We and the Scottish Government have work to do to improve the bill and make it more robust. We must have adequate protections that genuinely address people’s concerns, but it is time for change. It is time to support equal marriage.
17:37
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08327, in the name of Alex Neil, on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill.16:58
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Alex Neil)
SNP
The Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill will make a number of changes to the law on marriage and civil partnership, but the centrepiece is obvious...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
What provisions are there in the bill to avoid situations in extremis that may occur when one party challenges the other, which could possibly force action t...
Alex Neil
SNP
I will go into detail on such issues later when I discuss the recommendations from the Equal Opportunities Committee.I have already referred to same-sex marr...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Can the minister clarify at this point exactly how he intends to deal with the issue of the 4,100 consultation submissions that were—through no fault of his—...
Alex Neil
SNP
We have found the submissions and we will put them on the website. As Alex Johnstone said, they were not lost through any fault of the Scottish Government. T...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As the cabinet secretary knows, my wife and I adopted our daughter some 30 years ago. Would he agree with me that because my wife and I do not support same-s...
Alex Neil
SNP
Believing in or opposing same-sex marriage is in itself no barrier to adoption. I am happy to write to Richard Lyle to clarify the law on adoption in relatio...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
The cabinet secretary will know that a Roman Catholic adoption agency is currently having its charitable status threatened because it does not recognise same...
Alex Neil
SNP
That matter is currently under legal appeal. Therefore, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on that particular example. I am happy to clarify such ma...
Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
SNP
At present, the state dictates what the position of each religious denomination should be on the matter: it explicitly does not allow them to marry people of...
Alex Neil
SNP
Absolutely; a number of religious organisations and churches are very much in favour of the proposed legislation—the Quakers being a good example. Until now,...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Does the cabinet secretary agree with the Queen’s counsel who told the Equal Opportunities Committee that legally the guidance will have no binding effect?
Alex Neil
SNP
I do not agree at all. The guidance is from the chief prosecutor to every prosecutor in Scotland. In my view, to say that it will have no impact is absolute ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I remind people in the gallery not to applaud.17:15
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Equal Opportunities Committee, following our stage 1 report on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotla...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will Margaret McCulloch give way?
Margaret McCulloch
Lab
No—I do not have time. I have a lot to get through on the report.Some witnesses emphasised the concept of complementarity between men and women. The Catholic...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to participate in this stage 1 debate on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill. At the outset, I commend the Scottish Government un...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I will in a second.Religions can and do refuse to marry people. That is a matter for them; it is not proposed that that will change.
Mark McDonald
SNP
The member has just made my point, which is that churches are already able to choose who they marry.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I am never keen to give up time to the member, but I am glad that we are in agreement.I welcome that point because it is important. However, I acknowledge th...
Ruth Davidson (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
The debate is not easy and it was never going to be. When areas of love meet the law and when belief, commitment and faith collide with legislation, the wate...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
I thank Ruth Davidson for giving way during her very eloquent contribution; I am enjoying it very much. She spoke about the next generation. I am the father ...
Ruth Davidson
Con
I would hope that their father would have helped to vote them that opportunity. Talking about the next generation is important because it is those people we ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We now move to the open debate. I have 20 members who wish to take part in the debate. I am absolutely determined that those who have already indicated their...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I apologise for not noticing earlier that we were running slightly ahead of schedule.As is becoming clear to everyone, the bill...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
Is the member aware that last month marked the 50th anniversary of the publication of a book called “Towards a Quaker View of Sex”? That book said:“Surely it...
Marco Biagi
SNP
I very much agree with the sentiment that was expressed, although I speak up for Unitarians, who have also been performing same-sex blessings since the 1950s...