Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 20 November 2013
20 Nov 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Defence Industry
As Donald Dewar foretold, we have heard the shout of the welder in the din of the great Clyde shipyards, and it is time that the Scottish Government listened. The shipyard workers have spoken out to protect their industry. SNP members may condemn me, but they ought to listen to what these men have to say about the consequences of next year’s vote.
When people come to vote on 18 September next year, they will do so for many reasons and this may be a factor. I suspect that there are people on the Government benches who care about the shipbuilding industry but privately accept that the closure of the shipyards would happen and is a price worth paying in order for Scotland to be independent. However, the least that they can and should do is to be honest with the people whom they represent about the consequences of such a decision.
Jobs on the Clyde are not the reason why I support the United Kingdom. I believe that our argument is far deeper and richer. However, I have to say in all seriousness that, had I been a nationalist over these past few weeks, I am sure that I would have at least paused for reflection on whether my commitment to my political project would come at the cost of people’s jobs. At least be honest and tell them, “You may lose these shipbuilding jobs, but it is a price worth paying for Scotland to be separate”—
When people come to vote on 18 September next year, they will do so for many reasons and this may be a factor. I suspect that there are people on the Government benches who care about the shipbuilding industry but privately accept that the closure of the shipyards would happen and is a price worth paying in order for Scotland to be independent. However, the least that they can and should do is to be honest with the people whom they represent about the consequences of such a decision.
Jobs on the Clyde are not the reason why I support the United Kingdom. I believe that our argument is far deeper and richer. However, I have to say in all seriousness that, had I been a nationalist over these past few weeks, I am sure that I would have at least paused for reflection on whether my commitment to my political project would come at the cost of people’s jobs. At least be honest and tell them, “You may lose these shipbuilding jobs, but it is a price worth paying for Scotland to be separate”—
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08348, in the name of Johann Lamont, on the future of the defence industry in Scotland. I advise members ...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lab
I am proud to speak in the debate.In 2011, as a consequence of the reorganisation of the boundaries for Scottish Parliament elections, I was elected to repre...
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
SNP
I much appreciate Johann Lamont giving me the opportunity to intervene.Does Johann Lamont think that democracy is an urgent issue for everyone in the world? ...
Johann Lamont
Lab
Ian Davidson stands second to none in championing the interests of shipyard workers. He has fought to secure jobs in the face of the threat that the commitme...
The Minister for Transport and Veterans (Keith Brown)
SNP
In the context of that last point about the decline in shipbuilding jobs, does Johann Lamont believe the promises to make the peace dividend pay for jobs in ...
Johann Lamont
Lab
I am not clear what point the minister is making. We must recognise something about which the Government has done nothing. It spoke about diversification onl...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Is Johann Lamont saying that BAE has taken a commercial decision—which she has recognised—to invest more than £300 million on the basis of whatever constitut...
Johann Lamont
Lab
The exemption applies precisely because we are inside the United Kingdom. Interruption. Members cannot wish that away. The Clyde is the best place inside the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Order.
Johann Lamont
Lab
I have acknowledged Nicola Sturgeon’s work with, and commitment to, the shipyards for which she once acted and I accept that she has a good understanding of ...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way?
Johann Lamont
Lab
For the avoidance of doubt, let us be clear that if Scotland votes yes next year, it will be the death knell of a proud industry. Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Order, please.
Johann Lamont
Lab
That is not defeatism but the real world. If SNP members do not believe me, they should come and join the people in the real world who work in the industry. ...
Mark McDonald
SNP
Will the member give way?
Johann Lamont
Lab
Listen to the men who work in the industry. We know what you think. You should understand what the people in the shipyards think.Raymond Duguid of Rosyth sai...
Gil Paterson
SNP
But he works for you.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Mr Paterson, order, please.
Johann Lamont
Lab
Duncan McPhee of Scotstoun said:“we would be greatly reduced or completely finished as a shipbuilding industry”.John Wall of the Confederation of Shipbuildin...
Mark McDonald
SNP
Will the member give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Mr McDonald, please sit down.
Johann Lamont
Lab
As Donald Dewar foretold, we have heard the shout of the welder in the din of the great Clyde shipyards, and it is time that the Scottish Government listened...
Gil Paterson
SNP
You are a disgrace to Scotland.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Order.Ms Lamont, you are in your final minute.
Johann Lamont
Lab
The fact of the matter is that, in this debate, the people within the industry tell us the consequences and the people who support independence tell us that ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Before I call the minister to speak, I remind the chamber that although debates can be robust and members can have opinions on all sides of them, they must b...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I wonder whether it is in order for a member to shout, “You are a disgrace to Scotland”, to a member who is defendin...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I have just made the point to the chamber that members must be respectful of each other. That is what it says in the standing orders, so we should all reflec...
Neil Findlay
Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I wonder whether you would allow the opportunity for the member to withdraw that disgraceful comment. Applause.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Order, please. I have made the point that members should be respectful of each other, which is what it says in the standing orders. I now expect the debate t...