Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 22 April 2014
22 Apr 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Voice in the European Union
I thank the Scottish Government for enabling Parliament to debate the European Union. With an imminent election in May and the referendum in September, it is important that we do so.
Like some other members—although we are very much in the minority in this Parliament—I remember voting in another referendum on 5 June 1975. I think that the cabinet secretary is too young to have shared that experience. That referendum nearly 40 years ago was to gauge support for the country’s continued membership of the European Economic Community or, as it was much better known, the Common Market. The question was simple: “Do you think that the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?” Overwhelmingly, people said yes, and I was one of them. I felt very strongly that there were clear advantages in having a Common Market. I also felt that, if peoples in different countries could work in economic harmony to their mutual benefit, they were far less likely to harbour hostile intentions towards each other.
At that time, there were nine EEC countries. Today, the European Union comprises 28 member states that are bound together by a miscellany of treaties, conventions and protocols. In character, it is far removed from being a common market. One area of concern has been the inexorable ceding of sovereignty from individual member states to a centralised EU core state. I gather from what the cabinet secretary says that she values individual sovereignty.
It is no surprise that the gulf between the common market concept that was endorsed in a UK referendum nearly 40 years ago and the current reality of the EU creates a tension. Indeed, in a poll last year, more than half of Scots said that they thought that there should be an in/out referendum. Interestingly, in that poll, 63 per cent of SNP voters said that they thought that there should be an in/out referendum.
In my view, the EU patently requires reform; again, the cabinet secretary agrees. I think that the reformed version should be put to a referendum. I want the UK to remain in the EU. I think that it would be difficult for many UK companies to trade with EU countries if we were outside the coop. Important protections have already been secured: the UK rebate, the exemption from the requirement to join the euro and the exemption from the Schengen provisions. Regardless of whether the cabinet secretary agrees, the independence agenda places those protections at risk. Losing them could cost Scotland nearly £1.5 billion in lost output and could threaten thousands of jobs across the Scottish economy.
What do we know? We know that if Scotland becomes independent we will be required to negotiate new membership. The article could not be clearer about that. We know that that will require the unanimous agreement of the other member states.
Like some other members—although we are very much in the minority in this Parliament—I remember voting in another referendum on 5 June 1975. I think that the cabinet secretary is too young to have shared that experience. That referendum nearly 40 years ago was to gauge support for the country’s continued membership of the European Economic Community or, as it was much better known, the Common Market. The question was simple: “Do you think that the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?” Overwhelmingly, people said yes, and I was one of them. I felt very strongly that there were clear advantages in having a Common Market. I also felt that, if peoples in different countries could work in economic harmony to their mutual benefit, they were far less likely to harbour hostile intentions towards each other.
At that time, there were nine EEC countries. Today, the European Union comprises 28 member states that are bound together by a miscellany of treaties, conventions and protocols. In character, it is far removed from being a common market. One area of concern has been the inexorable ceding of sovereignty from individual member states to a centralised EU core state. I gather from what the cabinet secretary says that she values individual sovereignty.
It is no surprise that the gulf between the common market concept that was endorsed in a UK referendum nearly 40 years ago and the current reality of the EU creates a tension. Indeed, in a poll last year, more than half of Scots said that they thought that there should be an in/out referendum. Interestingly, in that poll, 63 per cent of SNP voters said that they thought that there should be an in/out referendum.
In my view, the EU patently requires reform; again, the cabinet secretary agrees. I think that the reformed version should be put to a referendum. I want the UK to remain in the EU. I think that it would be difficult for many UK companies to trade with EU countries if we were outside the coop. Important protections have already been secured: the UK rebate, the exemption from the requirement to join the euro and the exemption from the Schengen provisions. Regardless of whether the cabinet secretary agrees, the independence agenda places those protections at risk. Losing them could cost Scotland nearly £1.5 billion in lost output and could threaten thousands of jobs across the Scottish economy.
What do we know? We know that if Scotland becomes independent we will be required to negotiate new membership. The article could not be clearer about that. We know that that will require the unanimous agreement of the other member states.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09748, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on Scotland’s voice in the European Union.15:19
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I am reflecting on how strange it will be not to hear Margo MacDonald’s voice and distinctive position in this debate on Europe.In the next few weeks, citize...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I am interested in the cabinet secretary’s comments and regret that there will not be a vote on the Green amendment. Has she discussed with Mike Weir, Eilidh...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
That is why I want to give the opportunity to discuss scrutiny; people can challenge the transatlantic trade and investment partnership without disagreeing w...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
The cabinet secretary appears to be in the mood for revealing information. For the past year, I have been asking for the First Minister’s speech to EU ambass...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
If Willie Rennie speaks to ministers in the UK Government, he will be told that it is not acceptable, nor is it the norm, to reveal discussions that take pla...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
The Deputy First Minister has said that membership of the euro is her red line. Which of the reforms that the cabinet secretary proposes would be a red line ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I refer Drew Smith to the white paper, “Scotland’s Future”, in which we talk about “continuity of effect”, which means that there will be no detriment to oth...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
This is, of course, the first debate in the Parliament since the sad death of Margo MacDonald, and as such it is the first of many debates in which we will n...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson take an intervention?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I am happy to take an intervention from Mr Stevenson.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Patricia Ferguson will of course be wholly familiar with the acquis communautaire that is the constitution of the EU. Is she familiar with section 50, which ...
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I gently point out to Mr Stevenson that, in actual fact, the UK is the only state in these islands that has signed the treaties of the EU. If we divorce ours...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
No.
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I have to say to Mr Stevenson that I think that we will both have to wait and find out what the actual situation is, because the one thing that is absolutely...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
Order.
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
Having noted that the Scottish Government now accepts that there will have to be a period of negotiation—I do not know whether Mr Stevenson was trying to sug...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson give way?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
If the cabinet secretary can clarify that point, I will be happy to do so.
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
It is about basic democracy and sovereignty. We can choose to pool our sovereignty in the EU, but currently there is no choice.
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I am sorry that that is the kind of logic that has come to bear on the SNP’s position. It seems bizarre that the SNP would want to pool sovereignty in a situ...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson give way?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
No.The Scottish Government will tell the European Union that, in our case, it should use article 48 and that it should simply allow us to join by way of a tr...
Kevin Stewart
SNP
Will the member give way?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
No, thank you, Mr Stewart.The fact of the matter is that article 49 of the treaty is the only existing mechanism by which membership can be negotiated. Just ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Can we have a bit of courtesy, please?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
The SNP also presumes that all 28 member states would be happy to allow Scotland to join the EU on its own terms, but that seems unlikely to me.
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson take an intervention?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I have already taken a number of interventions, thank you.Let me speak more specifically of the terms of Scotland’s membership. The SNP wants—no: it demands—...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank the Scottish Government for enabling Parliament to debate the European Union. With an imminent election in May and the referendum in September, it is...