Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 22 April 2014
22 Apr 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Voice in the European Union
If Willie Rennie speaks to ministers in the UK Government, he will be told that it is not acceptable, nor is it the norm, to reveal discussions that take place with other Governments on diplomatic matters. I meet countries’ ambassadors and ministers all the time; they would not take kindly to my revealing the content of our discussions. However, we discuss such matters amicably and we build trust. Trust is very important in our relationships with other countries.
Given that the Council of Ministers would make the decision on the agreed process for membership, that we know that the UK has not even asked the Commission to analyse the proposals in “Scotland’s Future”, and that no work has been produced by it, the opinion that is mentioned in Labour’s amendment is just that—a political opinion by a politician who has a close alliance with the UK Government. Members will recall that the same Mr Barroso hosted the Bush-Blair summit in the Azores before the Iraq war.
The reality is that it is in everyone’s interests, throughout the whole EU, for Scotland and its citizens to remain part of the EU. An independent Scotland would continue her membership and become the 29th member, and would negotiate the specific terms of our membership from within the EU. Surely it is time even for the better together Labour-Tory alliance to move on and to recognise that, as the evidence to the European and External Relations Committee shows, the issue is not whether we would be a continuing member, but the method by which we would continue membership and how the transition would work. There is a strong and increasingly supportable case that the method and timescale that are set out in the white paper are reasonable and achievable.
The legal responsibility, under the EU, to serve the interests of Scottish citizens from 18 September, should there be a yes vote, is one that lies not just with the UK Government for the remaining 18 months before independence, but with all EU members. I do not think that sitting on their hands for 18 months would be either responsible or credible; neither do many of the committee witnesses. As James Crawford, the UK’s legal adviser, said, 18 months seems “realistic”.
Of course, we will be seen as an asset as an independent country; we have two thirds of the EU’s oil reserves, 20 per cent of natural gas production and a huge share of the continent’s renewable energy, at a time when energy security is becoming increasingly important. A short and smooth transition to membership of the EU would be beneficial to other member states. The cohesion of the European single market requires that.
Continued uninterrupted access to Scotland’s fishing grounds for European fishermen and, which is important, the onshore processing jobs that rely on fishing—not to forget that access to Norwegian fishing waters relies on bilateral arrangements about Scotland’s waters—also makes continuity of membership common sense.
Our focus is therefore not on whether we will be a continuing member, but on what type of member we will be, what reforms we will pursue and what policy agenda will be our focus. Just as other countries including the Netherlands, Germany and Finland are engaging constructively on EU reform, so could we engage, as an independent nation. Like us, those countries argue that reform can be delivered without treaty change. The Conservative idea that we will win friends and influence people by threatening the EU with our withdrawal is plain wrong, and explains why the UK is increasingly being treated as an outsider.
There are practical examples for reform that would not require treaty change in the realms of common fisheries policy and the common agricultural policy, in relation to which we advocate more regionalisation and greater flexibility, with further delegation of power to national and regional levels, as opposed to a one-size-fits-all approach, which does not take account of regional diversity and priorities.
Given that the Council of Ministers would make the decision on the agreed process for membership, that we know that the UK has not even asked the Commission to analyse the proposals in “Scotland’s Future”, and that no work has been produced by it, the opinion that is mentioned in Labour’s amendment is just that—a political opinion by a politician who has a close alliance with the UK Government. Members will recall that the same Mr Barroso hosted the Bush-Blair summit in the Azores before the Iraq war.
The reality is that it is in everyone’s interests, throughout the whole EU, for Scotland and its citizens to remain part of the EU. An independent Scotland would continue her membership and become the 29th member, and would negotiate the specific terms of our membership from within the EU. Surely it is time even for the better together Labour-Tory alliance to move on and to recognise that, as the evidence to the European and External Relations Committee shows, the issue is not whether we would be a continuing member, but the method by which we would continue membership and how the transition would work. There is a strong and increasingly supportable case that the method and timescale that are set out in the white paper are reasonable and achievable.
The legal responsibility, under the EU, to serve the interests of Scottish citizens from 18 September, should there be a yes vote, is one that lies not just with the UK Government for the remaining 18 months before independence, but with all EU members. I do not think that sitting on their hands for 18 months would be either responsible or credible; neither do many of the committee witnesses. As James Crawford, the UK’s legal adviser, said, 18 months seems “realistic”.
Of course, we will be seen as an asset as an independent country; we have two thirds of the EU’s oil reserves, 20 per cent of natural gas production and a huge share of the continent’s renewable energy, at a time when energy security is becoming increasingly important. A short and smooth transition to membership of the EU would be beneficial to other member states. The cohesion of the European single market requires that.
Continued uninterrupted access to Scotland’s fishing grounds for European fishermen and, which is important, the onshore processing jobs that rely on fishing—not to forget that access to Norwegian fishing waters relies on bilateral arrangements about Scotland’s waters—also makes continuity of membership common sense.
Our focus is therefore not on whether we will be a continuing member, but on what type of member we will be, what reforms we will pursue and what policy agenda will be our focus. Just as other countries including the Netherlands, Germany and Finland are engaging constructively on EU reform, so could we engage, as an independent nation. Like us, those countries argue that reform can be delivered without treaty change. The Conservative idea that we will win friends and influence people by threatening the EU with our withdrawal is plain wrong, and explains why the UK is increasingly being treated as an outsider.
There are practical examples for reform that would not require treaty change in the realms of common fisheries policy and the common agricultural policy, in relation to which we advocate more regionalisation and greater flexibility, with further delegation of power to national and regional levels, as opposed to a one-size-fits-all approach, which does not take account of regional diversity and priorities.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09748, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on Scotland’s voice in the European Union.15:19
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I am reflecting on how strange it will be not to hear Margo MacDonald’s voice and distinctive position in this debate on Europe.In the next few weeks, citize...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I am interested in the cabinet secretary’s comments and regret that there will not be a vote on the Green amendment. Has she discussed with Mike Weir, Eilidh...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
That is why I want to give the opportunity to discuss scrutiny; people can challenge the transatlantic trade and investment partnership without disagreeing w...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
The cabinet secretary appears to be in the mood for revealing information. For the past year, I have been asking for the First Minister’s speech to EU ambass...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
If Willie Rennie speaks to ministers in the UK Government, he will be told that it is not acceptable, nor is it the norm, to reveal discussions that take pla...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
The Deputy First Minister has said that membership of the euro is her red line. Which of the reforms that the cabinet secretary proposes would be a red line ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I refer Drew Smith to the white paper, “Scotland’s Future”, in which we talk about “continuity of effect”, which means that there will be no detriment to oth...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
This is, of course, the first debate in the Parliament since the sad death of Margo MacDonald, and as such it is the first of many debates in which we will n...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson take an intervention?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I am happy to take an intervention from Mr Stevenson.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Patricia Ferguson will of course be wholly familiar with the acquis communautaire that is the constitution of the EU. Is she familiar with section 50, which ...
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I gently point out to Mr Stevenson that, in actual fact, the UK is the only state in these islands that has signed the treaties of the EU. If we divorce ours...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
No.
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I have to say to Mr Stevenson that I think that we will both have to wait and find out what the actual situation is, because the one thing that is absolutely...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
Order.
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
Having noted that the Scottish Government now accepts that there will have to be a period of negotiation—I do not know whether Mr Stevenson was trying to sug...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson give way?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
If the cabinet secretary can clarify that point, I will be happy to do so.
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
It is about basic democracy and sovereignty. We can choose to pool our sovereignty in the EU, but currently there is no choice.
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I am sorry that that is the kind of logic that has come to bear on the SNP’s position. It seems bizarre that the SNP would want to pool sovereignty in a situ...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson give way?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
No.The Scottish Government will tell the European Union that, in our case, it should use article 48 and that it should simply allow us to join by way of a tr...
Kevin Stewart
SNP
Will the member give way?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
No, thank you, Mr Stewart.The fact of the matter is that article 49 of the treaty is the only existing mechanism by which membership can be negotiated. Just ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Can we have a bit of courtesy, please?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
The SNP also presumes that all 28 member states would be happy to allow Scotland to join the EU on its own terms, but that seems unlikely to me.
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Will Patricia Ferguson take an intervention?
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I have already taken a number of interventions, thank you.Let me speak more specifically of the terms of Scotland’s membership. The SNP wants—no: it demands—...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank the Scottish Government for enabling Parliament to debate the European Union. With an imminent election in May and the referendum in September, it is...