Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 30 May 2013
30 May 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Railways
I will not, at this stage.
The achievements demonstrate the benefits of the existing industry structure, and I am determined to ensure that we do not make any of the mistakes that are suggested in the Labour amendment, which would interfere with a process that will allow continued effective rail services in Scotland.
The ScotRail franchise is an example of how such success can be achieved. Through working in collaboration with the Government, new services and new stations have been developed, which genuinely demonstrates the effectiveness of the current system. The Government will, of course, point out the difficulties that have been associated with the west coast main line franchise, but any criticism of that will be put to bed when we eventually come to a conclusion on the Clyde and Hebrides ferries contract, on which the Government seems determined to drag its feet over the long term.
There are a number of key issues that it will be necessary to address during the debate. First, there is an issue surrounding the balance of the contributions of the fare payer and the taxpayer in provision of public rail services. We heard from the minister, in his opening remarks, about the efforts that are being made to keep fares down. I acknowledge that the minister has pursued that policy objective in a quite obvious fashion. Nevertheless, I am repeatedly contacted by people who are concerned about the figure of £511.5 million—it is cited in the Labour Party’s amendment—which is the cost to the public purse of maintaining rail services in Scotland. We must keep that balance in mind and remember that we cannot criticise the level of support at a time when the Government is increasing its support in order to keep fares down. We cannot criticise both sides without realising that there is a balance to be struck. Although I may, at times, argue about the nature of that balance, I am not prepared to condemn the level of support when it is obvious why the Government has chosen to increase it at this time.
Secondly, I turn to the efforts that have been made by Scotland’s rail operators to produce new services. There are a number of examples of how profits that have been made by the ScotRail franchise holder have been ploughed back into provision of new services. In fact, the franchise extension that took place during the current franchise is an example of how a deal can be done with the Government to take money from the profits of the company and invest it back in services. When that was addressed in Parliament at the time, we supported the action of the Government in pursuing that aim.
The third and final issue that I will address is the key issue in the Labour Party amendment, and which is covered to some extent by the Green Party amendment, that somehow we should find a way to take Scotland’s rail industry either partially or totally back into public ownership.
I believe that many of the improvements that are mentioned in the Government’s motion are genuine examples of how the current system can work. Of course there have been difficulties with the west coast main line and east coast main line franchises, but the quality of service that the franchisees provide is a credit only to those who provide it. At the end of the day, ensuring that the current system is properly administered will deliver rail services that will continue to improve, continue to provide higher levels of passenger satisfaction, offer improved performance and, if managed correctly, provide better value for money for the taxpayer and the fare payer alike.
Only if we persist with the current system will we be able to see those improvements take place. If we fall back on a system that is designed to run on a nationalised or not-for-profit basis, we will run the risk of making all the same mistakes that were made in previous decades.
The achievements demonstrate the benefits of the existing industry structure, and I am determined to ensure that we do not make any of the mistakes that are suggested in the Labour amendment, which would interfere with a process that will allow continued effective rail services in Scotland.
The ScotRail franchise is an example of how such success can be achieved. Through working in collaboration with the Government, new services and new stations have been developed, which genuinely demonstrates the effectiveness of the current system. The Government will, of course, point out the difficulties that have been associated with the west coast main line franchise, but any criticism of that will be put to bed when we eventually come to a conclusion on the Clyde and Hebrides ferries contract, on which the Government seems determined to drag its feet over the long term.
There are a number of key issues that it will be necessary to address during the debate. First, there is an issue surrounding the balance of the contributions of the fare payer and the taxpayer in provision of public rail services. We heard from the minister, in his opening remarks, about the efforts that are being made to keep fares down. I acknowledge that the minister has pursued that policy objective in a quite obvious fashion. Nevertheless, I am repeatedly contacted by people who are concerned about the figure of £511.5 million—it is cited in the Labour Party’s amendment—which is the cost to the public purse of maintaining rail services in Scotland. We must keep that balance in mind and remember that we cannot criticise the level of support at a time when the Government is increasing its support in order to keep fares down. We cannot criticise both sides without realising that there is a balance to be struck. Although I may, at times, argue about the nature of that balance, I am not prepared to condemn the level of support when it is obvious why the Government has chosen to increase it at this time.
Secondly, I turn to the efforts that have been made by Scotland’s rail operators to produce new services. There are a number of examples of how profits that have been made by the ScotRail franchise holder have been ploughed back into provision of new services. In fact, the franchise extension that took place during the current franchise is an example of how a deal can be done with the Government to take money from the profits of the company and invest it back in services. When that was addressed in Parliament at the time, we supported the action of the Government in pursuing that aim.
The third and final issue that I will address is the key issue in the Labour Party amendment, and which is covered to some extent by the Green Party amendment, that somehow we should find a way to take Scotland’s rail industry either partially or totally back into public ownership.
I believe that many of the improvements that are mentioned in the Government’s motion are genuine examples of how the current system can work. Of course there have been difficulties with the west coast main line and east coast main line franchises, but the quality of service that the franchisees provide is a credit only to those who provide it. At the end of the day, ensuring that the current system is properly administered will deliver rail services that will continue to improve, continue to provide higher levels of passenger satisfaction, offer improved performance and, if managed correctly, provide better value for money for the taxpayer and the fare payer alike.
Only if we persist with the current system will we be able to see those improvements take place. If we fall back on a system that is designed to run on a nationalised or not-for-profit basis, we will run the risk of making all the same mistakes that were made in previous decades.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
Good afternoon, everyone. The first item of business is a debate on motion S4M-06766, in the name of Keith Brown, on transforming Scotland’s railways. We are...
The Minister for Transport and Veterans (Keith Brown)
SNP
Scotland’s railways are in the midst of a transformation and there is a real success story to tell. Now is the right time to take account of our achievements...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
SNP
Is the minister aware of the rail improvements that have been made between Belfast and Dublin, where there is equity of interest? Cross-border rail services ...
Keith Brown
SNP
The example that has been given by Stewart Stevenson illustrates that cross-border services can be organised in the mutual interest of two countries if the w...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome what the minister has done so far in sorting out anomalies with regard to Dundee. However, does he accept that there are still major anomalies on t...
Keith Brown
SNP
In dealing with about a quarter of a million journeys on which anomalies had occurred, we made substantial progress. That progress could have been made many ...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
What can the minister do to encourage bidders—either co-operative bidders or mutual or not-for-dividend bidders—to come forward and bid for the franchise?
Keith Brown
SNP
I think that I answered that question from Ken Macintosh last week. I am interested to know what the Labour Party’s position is. I reiterate that I cannot en...
John Lamont (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Con
Will the minister give way?
Keith Brown
SNP
I want to make more progress, but I will see if I have time at the end to give way.The £30 million fund will provide investment for new and improved stations...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
This Government never really fails to disappoint on the height of the complacency and self-congratulation to which it aspires. There are really only two them...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Will Elaine Murray take the opportunity to congratulate the young engineer who came up with the idea for that project, which I had the privilege of adjudging...
Elaine Murray
Lab
I am more than happy to congratulate that young engineer; I just do not particularly want to congratulate the Scottish Government.Of course, there are the pr...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Does Elaine Murray accept that there are things that we would all like to see for the railways, but that there are realistic options and then a wish list? Ca...
Elaine Murray
Lab
Glasgow crossrail was actually in the infrastructure plan. In fact, it had gone as far as being moved to a parliamentary bill, so it was a little bit further...
Keith Brown
SNP
Will Elaine Murray give way?
Elaine Murray
Lab
I will not just now; I want to develop my point.When he was asked by Ken Macintosh last week whether the Scottish Government would encourage a not-for-profit...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I would welcome that kind of development. However, does Elaine Murray accept that, in order for a not-for-profit bidder to materialise, what is really needed...
Elaine Murray
Lab
I agree that that needs leadership. What I am saying is that that leadership is being shown in Wales. Indeed, the Labour Party at UK level is also considerin...
Keith Brown
SNP
I have said a number of times that I have approached the Secretary of State for Transport about changing the terms of the 1993 act to allow us to open up the...
Elaine Murray
Lab
Quite honestly, I do not believe that it is for Ed Miliband to tell the Scottish Labour Party what it believes. He can consider what he wants for the United ...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
The Government’s record on transport differs from that of the Government that preceded it. The previous Labour-Liberal Democrat Administration’s reluctance t...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Will Alex Johnstone give way?
Alex Johnstone
Con
I will not, at this stage.The achievements demonstrate the benefits of the existing industry structure, and I am determined to ensure that we do not make any...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
You should be drawing to a close, please.
Alex Johnstone
Con
I invite the Government to see sense and to ensure that it does not listen to the Labour Party and the Green Party during the course of today’s debate.I move...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD)
LD
One thing on which I agree with Alex Johnstone is that there was a complete reversal of policy in 1999. The budget that the Liberal Democrat-Labour Governmen...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
On 19 December 2002, the Deputy Minister for Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning, Lewis Macdonald, said:“Congestion remains the key challenge that fa...
Tavish Scott
LD
That intervention absolutely gives the game away. I was trying to remember what the Scottish National Party position was on the big policy change that we mad...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I welcome the debate, and I see positive things to celebrate about the state of our railways, which is why the Green and independent amendment does not seek ...