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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 04 February 2014

04 Feb 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill
Finnie, John Ind Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV
I thank the various groups that provided briefings for the debate. One line in the Equality Network briefing said that it would make Scotland fair and more equal if we agreed to the bill, and I agree with that.

The Parliament has an important role in serving the people of Scotland, and we know that the people of Scotland have different genders, races, sexualities and localities.

The committee structure plays a key role in our scrutiny of legislation. Much has been said about the Equal Opportunities Committee. I thank our convener, Margaret McCulloch, for her comments and her résumé of the work that took place. I also thank our valuable committee staff, who were tremendously helpful in providing support to enable us to scrutinise the bill.

A lot of evidence was taken and, like many, I have had a lot of communications. Some of them have not been particularly measured and others have clearly indicated that they have not read the proposals, which is a bit disappointing.

Of particular interest was a line of emails that I got. As someone who has spent all but a handful of years in the Highlands—I was born, was brought up and live there—I found being told that I could not possibly be a Highlander or I would not support the bill to be quite dismissive of an entire population and, indeed, the geography of the place.

In many locations around the globe—sadly, 21st century Scotland is no different—people choose selective tracts from a book of their choice to support various things. That might be girls not being educated; women not being allowed to be doctors or to drive motor vehicles; the mode of dress that can be worn; boys and girls not being allowed to be educated in the same room; the races being segregated; children being beaten; interfaith and interrace marriages being banned; goats being thrown off towers to their deaths; and people who love each other not being allowed to marry.

There have been many entirely reasonably expressed views. I do not go for the hierarchy. We either believe in equality or we do not; there is no hierarchy within that.

I will quote two of the communications that I have had. One is from a monk in an abbey in the Highlands and Islands, who concludes by saying:

“Of course the main victims in your favoured legislation will be children—but they don’t vote, so obviously can be safely ignored”.

I have to say that I will be safely ignoring that gentleman.

I commend the approach to children that is taken by Stonewall Scotland, which says:

“Existing law already states, rightly, that all decisions on adoption or fostering must be based on the best interests of the child. Stonewall Scotland agrees that prospective foster carers and adoptive parents should not be rejected solely because of their views on same-sex marriage. We do believe, however, that potential adoptive parents or foster carers should be assessed on whether they have a range of skills to support looked after children, including those who may grow up to be lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender or may be experiencing homophobic or transphobic bullying.”

What a contrast between the views of that proponent of faith adherence and the support that we have had in the way of briefings from equality groups.

Similarly, like other members, I have received a communication from a Free Presbyterian minister, who says:

“If you ignore this warning”—

the warning not to support the bill—

“I am clear from complicity of you dying in your iniquity.”

He adds that his

“conscience will be purged from any involvement in the national sin.”

I have news for the Rev Campbell: I am going to die, and my death certificate will not state that the cause of death was iniquity or involvement in the national sin.

To those sadly loveless communicants, I say that I, too, can quote from a book. The book that I will quote from says:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

A lot has been made of statistics, and Jackie Baillie has alluded to the social attitudes survey. To me, it is not about who can get the bigger gang together but about which group values equality more. We have heard about the civil registrars and the contrast with the faith adherents, but who would want to get married in a situation involving duress anyway?

It is quite clear to me that one person’s morality is another person’s prejudice. I am sad to say that we have heard a lot of prejudice in relation to this bill. As I have said before, I do not think that there can be any caveats in relation to equality.

We have an opportunity to make history. Not many people get that. There have been vital votes on franchise and slavery, and the future analysis of that has been important. James Dornan will be seen to have acted to make a difference.

I have one final quote—

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
Before we start, I say to Parliament that, as a consequence of the earlier decision to extend the debate on amendments by 30 minutes, decision time will also...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Alex Neil) SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill.I thank the members of the Equal Opportunities Committee; its c...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Cabinet secretary, you just destroyed all my calculations and I will have to start all over again.16:19
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
Like the cabinet secretary, I am pleased to participate in the stage 3 debate on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill.I commend the members and...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con) Con
When this parliamentary year started and we came back from the summer recess in full anticipation of passing momentous legislation on same-sex marriage, my p...
Jackson Carlaw Con
—but in his own time.On re-reading that Official Report I saw that there were also eloquent speeches from Nigel Don and John Mason, who put the alternative p...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We now move to the open debate. We are heavily subscribed, notwithstanding the cabinet secretary’s efforts. I advise members that the first few speakers can ...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) SNP
Presiding Officer,“I am a migrant with a German passport who was born in a former Soviet country. I want to stay because I learned that Scotland is a place w...
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I support same-sex marriage as a matter of principle. Not long after I was elected to the Parliament, I was proud to pledge my support to the equal marriage ...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Members will not be surprised to discover—if they do not know already—that I will vote with the minority at decision time tonight. However, I have no intenti...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
Will the member accept that it should be the quality rather than the quantity that matters when it comes to amendments?
Alex Johnstone Con
Indeed. That is very much the case, as the way in which the evidence has been treated throughout the process indicates.As I said, I am disappointed that we w...
The Presiding Officer NPA
The next speeches will be of five minutes.16:51
James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) SNP
I start by responding to the point that Alex Johnstone just made. I would have thought that, if anything, the bill would strengthen marriage because it makes...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Tonight, I will be out of step with the majority of the Parliament, and I regret that. However, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak at what is undoubt...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Will the member give way?
Richard Lyle SNP
No, I will not. I have only five minutes.There are adoptive parents out there who are frightened that their opposition to same-sex marriage will be misunders...
The Presiding Officer NPA
You need to bring your remarks to a close.
Richard Lyle SNP
That happened before the law is changed.I know that I will not win tonight, but I will vote in line with my conscience, in the way that I have always stood u...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
The debate is no less welcome for being long awaited. At decision time, Scotland can become the 17th or the 26th country or territory around the world—it dep...
Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) (SNP) SNP
It is an absolute delight to be in the chamber today and to pass the bill very soon, I hope.I thank not only all those who have worked hard to bring to fruit...
The Presiding Officer NPA
It will have to be brief, Ms Fabiani.
Linda Fabiani SNP
Absolutely. The Equality Network is saying that there is still a lot more work to do to tackle prejudice and to ensure that LGBT people receive equal treatme...
Jim Hume (South Scotland) (LD) LD
Fairness and equality run through the veins of every true Liberal Democrat I know. We want Scotland to be one of the fairest and most equal places in the wor...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
The process has been a long one. I thank members, the clerks and others who have helped with a professional attitude throughout. I first said something publi...
Jim Hume LD
I do not like to say that the member is scaremongering, but does he have any evidence at all of religious organisations being squeezed out?
John Mason SNP
We have gone over some of this already, but it appears that, for example, somebody with traditional committed Christian or Muslim beliefs cannot be a registr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
I thank the various groups that provided briefings for the debate. One line in the Equality Network briefing said that it would make Scotland fair and more e...
The Presiding Officer NPA
You need to make it brief.
John Finnie Ind
Martin Luther King Jnr said:“I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too big a burden to bear.”I ask others to facilitate the love that would allow people...