Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 22 January 2014
22 Jan 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
The Justice Committee requested time for the debate, and I thank the Parliamentary Bureau for allowing us to have it. All members of the committee were concerned about the lack of opportunity to take evidence, which comes from the extremely flawed process of dealing with LCMs on substantive measures that come to the Parliament. That is not the Government’s fault; that is the LCM process. I think that the Government was put between a rock and a hard place, but the committee, representing the Parliament’s scrutiny of the LCM, was also put between a rock and a hard place.
The LCM follows a previous LCM on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which is a bill for England and Wales. The LCM is an addition to something that went before. Most LCMs are not contentious. That included this one, but sometimes we come across something that is under the radar, and the forced marriage part in the LCM was under the radar. Substantial examination was needed to give parties affected in Scotland a chance to have their say. We now hear that a further amendment is coming by way of an LCM on vulnerable parties. The process is most unsatisfactory. The committee has put down a marker.
We asked the witnesses to come before us in a very short timeframe. Those who work on the ground in Shakti Women’s Aid and in Scottish Women’s Aid told us that people need to be reassured before they make a formal statement that the protection that they seek—we have protection orders available—can be obtained in the family courts, so their families will not be prosecuted.
Our concern is that the approach in the LCM might be counterproductive. We have good legislation—legislation that does not apply in England and Wales and which is civil but which has a criminal penalty for breach of orders—that has been bedded in for only one year. Seven forced marriage protection orders have already been put in place, which is good news. We felt that the approach in the LCM came too fast on the scene.
As I have said, the problem is that the Scottish Parliament is not in control of the timetable. However, we are where we are. We hear members express reluctance around the chamber. We all want to get to the same place, but are we going about that in the right way? If we have learned one thing in here, it is that legislating in haste means litigating and repenting at leisure. There is also the law of unintended consequences, which we certainly do not want to see.
One concern is that, if a civil action is in process and a criminal action is then brought forward, the prosecution will take precedence, generally speaking. I hear what the minister says about prosecutorial guidance, but that will have to make things very clear, as it is not the victim or the person who reports the situation who is in charge of the process; it is the Crown Office. I think that the views of parties who might use civil process, if they find that the way that they want to go, should be listened to before the criminal process is embarked on.
17:28
The LCM follows a previous LCM on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which is a bill for England and Wales. The LCM is an addition to something that went before. Most LCMs are not contentious. That included this one, but sometimes we come across something that is under the radar, and the forced marriage part in the LCM was under the radar. Substantial examination was needed to give parties affected in Scotland a chance to have their say. We now hear that a further amendment is coming by way of an LCM on vulnerable parties. The process is most unsatisfactory. The committee has put down a marker.
We asked the witnesses to come before us in a very short timeframe. Those who work on the ground in Shakti Women’s Aid and in Scottish Women’s Aid told us that people need to be reassured before they make a formal statement that the protection that they seek—we have protection orders available—can be obtained in the family courts, so their families will not be prosecuted.
Our concern is that the approach in the LCM might be counterproductive. We have good legislation—legislation that does not apply in England and Wales and which is civil but which has a criminal penalty for breach of orders—that has been bedded in for only one year. Seven forced marriage protection orders have already been put in place, which is good news. We felt that the approach in the LCM came too fast on the scene.
As I have said, the problem is that the Scottish Parliament is not in control of the timetable. However, we are where we are. We hear members express reluctance around the chamber. We all want to get to the same place, but are we going about that in the right way? If we have learned one thing in here, it is that legislating in haste means litigating and repenting at leisure. There is also the law of unintended consequences, which we certainly do not want to see.
One concern is that, if a civil action is in process and a criminal action is then brought forward, the prosecution will take precedence, generally speaking. I hear what the minister says about prosecutorial guidance, but that will have to make things very clear, as it is not the victim or the person who reports the situation who is in charge of the process; it is the Crown Office. I think that the views of parties who might use civil process, if they find that the way that they want to go, should be listened to before the criminal process is embarked on.
17:28
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08797, in the name of Shona Robison, on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which is Unit...
The Minister for Commonwealth Games and Sport (Shona Robison)
SNP
Forced marriage is, thankfully, not an issue that affects the majority of people in Scotland. However, it is a blight on those communities where it still hap...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
Is it not the case that the UK Government has signed but not ratified the convention, and that it becomes legally binding only when ratified? If the minister...
Shona Robison
SNP
We are clear that, in order to ratify the convention, forced marriage requires to become a criminal offence. The Istanbul convention was, in effect, a game c...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
Only one part of the legislative consent memorandum is contentious and that is the proposals on forced marriage.In starting, I think that it is important to ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you for your brevity.17:15
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
The Justice Committee report on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill legislative consent memorandum did not make a recommendation on the provis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. If members could speak for not too long, that would be helpful.17:18
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will try to keep my speech as short as possible.As a member of the Justice Committee, to which consideration of the LCM fell,...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
The LCM’s proposals on forced marriage proved very contentious. The shortcomings of the process were such that the committee decided not to recommend support...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
The Justice Committee requested time for the debate, and I thank the Parliamentary Bureau for allowing us to have it. All members of the committee were conce...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
In 2005, I introduced a consultation on forced marriage and listened to the views of violence against women organisations, such as Scottish Women’s Aid, Hema...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the closing speeches. I call Margaret Mitchell—four minutes, please.17:30
Margaret Mitchell
Con
This debate, which is an unusual one, was triggered by the Justice Committee’s decision not to make a recommendation on the inclusion of forced marriage with...
Elaine Murray
Lab
A number of important points have been brought out in this very brief debate. Sandra White made the point about the need to treat forced marriage as we do ot...
Shona Robison
SNP
I thank everyone for their contributions to the debate. Although we might not all agree on the details, I have a strong feeling of the commitment that member...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
The point is that there is time, especially given the information that Malcolm Chisholm supplied, to look again and see whether a Scottish solution can be fo...
Shona Robison
SNP
I find that comment slightly ironic, given the UK Government’s clear position. As for Malcolm Chisholm’s point about ratification, the UK cannot ratify the c...
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
There is disagreement on the legal advice, because that is not the legal advice that Scottish Women’s Aid has received. However, if the minister takes that v...
Shona Robison
SNP
We are looking at forced marriage today. We are clear that, to ratify the convention, we require to criminalise forced marriage. The other articles are anoth...